Filum Romanum - A Thread for the Catholic Church

Now that is change I can believe in, and ought to help shut up the people (including myself) who have been decrying most of Francis' papal actions as just a tonal shift without concrete and substantive executive actions.

First, the removal of bonii from the Vatican Bank directors, and now shuffling positions around to ensure that his new message gets heard. I like.

edited 17th Dec '13 9:31:01 AM by Ramidel

Its also ruffling quite a few feathers. the sheer amount of panic from protestant conservatives in news comments is getting rather fun to watch.

Watch as the conspiracy nuts get going...

Theyve already been going. theres groups declaring him the antichrist or that he's "taking the church away from everything christian". or declaring that true christians are like Mr Burke.

edited 17th Dec '13 9:53:16 AM by midgetsnowman

Anyone want to take bets on how long before the someone on the crazy right tries something really stupid?

Hmm, who wants less than one month, and who wants longer?

Won't make bets on time. Will make bets on something happening whenever His Holiness visits the US though.

Might spark off the more dormant anti-Catholic feeling on the American right - like the dual-loyalty slurs that Kennedy faced, for instance, or the Nativists, or the KKK's attitude towards Catholics.

It's interesting to note that John F Kennedy has been the only non-Protestant President of the USA.

Well some Italian catholics ran the KKK out of town in a city by me when they tried shit in the 30s, So I'm not too worried.

Lawmakers wish pope 'Happy Birthday'.

American conservatives are panicking because they don't comprehend Francis' message

Essentially, the reason for the backlash against Francis from the loony bin is because in the American political sphere, Christianity has always been a touchstone for some other agenda, usually conservative (and in the Christian left of the '60s, it was usually socialists quoting Jesus to backstop their positions).

Elsewhere, it seems that Christian parties are often Christian first and conservative second, and so (while not supporting classical socialism) they're quite favorable to wealth redistribution and social justice. And since Francis comes from the second tradition, he's saying stuff that doesn't compute to American Christianists, and so they're trying to detach him from his Christianity in the public eye. And, of course, looking like total dumbasses in doing so.

So basically, American Conservatives are thinking:

Something like that?

Nah, they're just trying to deny that he's a religious conservative, because as the religion's single most influential leader, he's got a hell of a lot of cred from Christians in general around the world, including the most conservative and the most invested in their Christianity. (The idea that Protestants and Catholics don't consider each other Christians is pretty much a Discredited Trope by now.)

Only Nixon could go to China, so they have to make it clear that he's no Dick Nixon before he challenges Christians to rethink their position on charitable works.

Pretty much. Most conservative american christian churches use the bible as a way to back up their positions, not vice versa. (I know from experience, I grew up in a conservative fundamentalist church)

This means the very concept of a pope who cares more about the teachings of christ than crusading against "sinners" or being self righteous and smug about being one of the saved ones, confuses the hell out of them.

To be fair, doesn't it seem that a lot of Francis' newfound cheerleaders seem to partly perceive him as a useful touchstone for their agendas?

That's a good point, but it depends what you mean by "touchstone". Am I, as a socialist/social democrat, gratified that Pope Francis seems to be singing from a hymn sheet closer to mine? Undoubtedly. Has my worldview ever depended on Christianity, or have I justified it with Christianity? No.

I don't doubt that ... but there are certainly partisans who do and have. And until Francis' replacement of Cardinal Burke with Wuerl, no one outside the fringes thought that his commitment to Christian and Catholic doctrine was less than sincere.

Yes. Others, of course, simply say that he's been having a positive impact on the Church and the world, without trying to pretend he agrees with us where he doesn't.

edited 18th Dec '13 8:35:01 AM by Ramidel

I'll agree that I like that Francis favors my own moral codes. But given I largely left the church because of my moral codes deeming it impossible to stay moral while still being a seventh day adventist, I am perfectly fine with a christian who lives more according to what I think a good person should be over what conservative pundits have warped the religion into.

edited 18th Dec '13 10:25:10 AM by midgetsnowman

Sorry, I don't follow:

Who do you mean by partisans? Do you mean Hans Kung liberal theologian types or other socialists; because the far left is generally quite hostile towards the Church.

For the second part, can I infer that you now think the view that Francis is hostile to the Church will now spread outside the SSPX-type loony fringe?

yeah.the far left is generally where you get the types who really mean it when they say "Religion is the opiate of the masses"

Well I'm aware it probably isn't entirely true, a lot of Pope Francis' actions do strike me as "Kicking the legs" out from under the Christian Right. I'm aware of the previous points that church doctrine on Abortion and what not hasn't changed, but the more the pope keeps pulling these conservative and monetarist members of the church out of credible positions, the more it has the public appearance of driving a wedge between the rather odd marriage of big money and conservative Christianity.

I'm aware why, as the Pope wants things to move more to actual caring of the flock, but it does have that amusing side effect of weakening Right-Wing moral credibility, at least in the U.S.

I was thinking of the post-Vatican II left whose youthful heyday was in the '60s and '70s, and who today account for a non-trivial number of older bishops, archbishops, and religious. There's also the liberation theologians who've fallen out of fashion, but haven't necessarily gone anywhere. Like too many on the right, such folks tend to assume that their personal political hobbyhorses are confirmed by Church doctrine ... and where fudging is necessary, will reshape the latter into the former's mould. It's pretty much a bipartisan failing, I'm afraid.

And I certainly hope the whole "Francis is hostile to the Church" nonsense stays firmly within the SSPX bughouse ... but one can be perfectly well-meaning and without hostility, and yet pursue unwise strategies. At first blush, his most recent personnel moves certainly look like chilliness towards churchmen who'd insist upon orthodoxy, and a needless poke in the eye to members of the flock who value it.

edited 18th Dec '13 11:46:36 AM by Jhimmibhob

it's funny the effect he has on people that aren't even catholic.