Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

Please show me where this is unclear.

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Then what are you even arguing against? From the very beginning we've just said that it's fair to judge people by their actions, but obviously it wouldn't be fair to judge isolated incidents disproportionally harshly.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

If it's so obvious that it doesn't need to be said, why are you assuming I'm arguing something else? And if you're arguing, why are you not reading what I write in plain text, as I've demonstrated?

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You're the one who's said that judging an author for what they write is irresponsible and judgmental, I have absolutely responded to what you've said.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

I am thankful I never had to explain to anyone that my hatred of elves was entirely fictional. Which author was it, who went to a university class about his writing, told the professor he was misinterpreting the text, and had the professor not believe him? Ray Bradbury?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

If that's what you say, I have no confidence you're arguing in good faith.

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blue ninja: I think it was asimov who was told "just because you wrote it, what makes you think you know anything about it"

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So someone complains that in every argument they're in everyone they argue with, without fail, misunderstands their point, then comes to the conclusion that it's on everyone else?

Maybe you're just a bad arguer. If one person misunderstands you, sure, that might be on them, but if half the thread can't follow your point, the reasonable assumption to come to is that you are failing in some way to express yourself properly.

Regardless, people can absolutely be judged as bigoted based on the bigoted works they produce. I don't need to meet the guys behind The Turner Diaries and "find out what's in their hearts" to know that they're neo-Nazis, just like I don't need to meet Richard Spencer face-to-face to find out "what's in his heart". They've made it clear from what they write and what they say.

edited 11th Mar '18 4:34:02 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

@Kazuya Prota

While I can't speak for everyone else I certainly wouldn't judge you personally for your fiction writing. Just the actual work in question.

"When I offered to make Norea my third back-up girlfriend she just glared at me and started throwing things at me.." Renee Costa

Relating to this question from the previous page.

Do we have any cultural world building threads that would be equipped to help fluff out the gender roles for a socioty that does have strong ones, that don't actualy match up to real life ones due the diffrent situation of the world itself? (And because it is fun to explore how things traditional thought of as feminine/masculine is cultural)

Actually, using me as a example just shows you how you can judge a writer for its work.

I have been struggling to how add racially South American characters in my works, and I am doubting seriously that, the reason for why I am so fine with adding characters of almost any race, but I have issues with Latin America, is because the classical South American self loathing.

Basically, I am still racist against my own race. Just that this time, is in a subconsious way.

edited 11th Mar '18 4:24:49 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country

To be fair, sometimes is because we dont find chararter or own own intersting.

I mean, im trying to devolpt a fantasy world and going for expy of south america get a littke bit tricky after a while.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Maybe, still. You can judge me for what I write, is a perfectly reasonable way to try to know what I think and believe.

Watch me destroying my country

" I don't need to meet the guys behind The Turner Diaries and "find out what's in their hearts" to know that they're neo-Nazis, just like I don't need to meet Richard Spencer face-to-face to find out "what's in his heart". They've made it clear from what they write and what they say."

Yeah but those are bad example because Turner diaries is a heavy political book who views outright influence the plot, chararter etc, unlike regular story who just try to used story and contain the bias and views of the author.

A good example is Tolkien vs Lewis: Lewis become pretty much autor tract latter one to the point his views informed how the plot must act while Tolkien was kind of more subtle and you have to pick apart the themes to get it.

So is a ration of how much a story is used a story and how much the theme, bias or even just likes a author like to put in a work.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

For the record, if you're looking for feedback on portraying things in a story, there is a writer's subsection on this forum, it's called "Writer's Block"and it's on the lower left hand corner.

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Yeah, the Writer's Block section is better for questions about that sort of thing, especially if it's about several issues that don't necessarily relate to this thread.

With writers like Tolkien, who's part of an older culture than our "modern" one, I think that usually has more of an effect on it than their individual personality. However, that's their culture as seen through that author's eyes. Still, at least for me, culture is what shines through. It's often the part of our values we don't think about. We tend to know our personalities, but what part of that is from culture and what part is individuality can be hard to notice, especially from the inside.

Also, if you judge someone based on what they write and what they say, then you're not just judging them based on what they write.

Quote me on where I said everyone in every argument.

edited 11th Mar '18 6:43:08 PM by AnotherDuck

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It also depend of the impact the work have: someone like lovecraft get a pass because he lived almost century ago and he was so damn shy his nastiness didnt really spread that much, while other author with bigoted can do a lot worst.

B Ut also, I have to said sometimes there is a diferent between author using tropes that can fall into unfortune implication and out right problematic views, because sometimes I feel we see unfortune implications as outright racism and blame the author for not see like we do.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Do you mean Values Dissonance? The thing I notice the most about that is either sexism in Japanese media, or racism in American media (extremely black-centric, but not the topic for this thread). For the former, it's not the things that are pointed out in any way, but the things that are smoothed over as if it's the default, like many of the (by our standards) outdated gender roles.

edited 11th Mar '18 7:22:38 PM by AnotherDuck

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Kinda, but that there is a diferent between political stories like the fountainhead, 1984, turner diaries in that they are based complete in a author tract while others and story with bias and view shaping stuff.

Also, that bigoted moments can ariese simple by bad writing which is why is scary a times to write a POC chararter, a boring white dude is just a boring white dude, while a bad POC can be problematic is own.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

If you write minority characters, they are going to be scrutinised in far greater detail than the average white male protagonist. That's also why it's a lot easier to write non-standard white male protagonists, since creators can get away with so much more without stirring up a controversy.

Not that it controversies don't happen when you do choose a white male lead. One recent example I can think of is Kingdom Come: Deliverance, which has a fixed protagonist. Lots of complaints about not being able to choose a female character. But you also can't choose a male protagonist who isn't Henry. I'd compare it with Horizon Zero Dawn, where you can only play as Aloy.

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And even them the controversy is the lack of choice, not the choice being risky which it is.

I think Bill cosby said it(Yeah I know) "If a white man stumble is just a fool, but if a black man does them is a disgrace for the entire negro race"

It kinda hightlight the point here, at worst a white male is just boring and standar(which in many ways, it have become their steriotype).

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

That might have something to do with Kingdom Come: Deliverance's writer-director Daniel Vávra saying stuff that is supportive of a certain Internet movement that is a banned topic in these forums.

In light of that, the game not offering the choice of a female protagonist does come across as kind of iffy.

edited 11th Mar '18 7:36:36 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised

Ok, maybe is just me but I think te whole GG thing being a banned subject should go.

I got it at first since it was a very hot topic at first(I mean, just look back into the craked thread, it was intense) but I feel the need for it have die down with the time and the rise of the alt right.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

I feel the exact opposite. There are still plenty of supporters of that bowel "movement" out there and it's hard enough to moderate these forums as is.

I liked it better when Questionable Casting was called WTH Casting Agency

"Noted sexist makes game without playable women. News at 10." In any case women are badly underrepresented in gaming, which means a game not presenting a male playable character and a game not presenting a female playable character are not the same thing.

You said it right here Duck. It's the second post (this is the first in which you said it.) We all read it. Maybe it isn't what you meant to say, but it's what you did say.

You literally used the frequency with which people disagree with you as evidence that no one in any of these threads (save maybe you, I guess) is qualified to do literary analysis. As if all these people disagreeing with you were proof of illiteracy among the population, rather than you not making your point as clearly as you meant to.

As those of us on the other side have said, people are responsible for what they write. If you don't mean something, don't write it. This goes for you and me as much as it goes for bestselling authors.

edited 11th Mar '18 8:08:37 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar