Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

She's also the first princess in my life who rescued her own damn self, and I have to admit, as a little girl that made a big impact on me. She's the one who kills Jabba. She doesn't wait around for a guy to save her from him. She just strangles the Hutt herself.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

And the thing about Leia is that she's a badass that makes sense within the universe of Star Wars. It doesn't feel like there's any obligation for a "strong female protagonist", she's just another character in the universe. She's not really a fighter, badass moments aside, and if she winds up in a situation where she's screwed, she's screwed. But the story doesn't hold her hostage to glorify other characters.

Han Solo never has to prove himself "worthy", they fall in love because they have chemistry, and they get to know each other, and they, well, they fall in love, just like regular people.

edited 3rd May '16 6:40:00 PM by InAnOdderWay

I don't know that she's that different. I think if the movie was released today, moments like her taking the gun away from Luke to shoot at the Stormtroopers herself or strangling Jabba with the slave chain would have antifeminists crying foul and claiming they just put those scenes in the movie to pander to feminists.

edited 4th May '16 1:50:35 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

So, someone I follow on Twitter raised the question of what would Star Wars be like if Luke and Leia had switched places — Luke had gone to be raised on Alderaan and Leia had grown up on Tatooine. The example they used was Prince Luke Organa as a Royal Who Actually Does Something by becoming a spy for the Rebellion. I replied with a tweet about Leia Skywalker abandoning her training with Yoda to rescue her brother Luke and his love interest Han Solo from Darth Vader in Cloud City.

He replied to me to say that I was doing it wrong — instead of just swapping the characters, he wanted to know how would the story change?

I didn't reply back (Twitter's not really the forum for that sort of thing), but I thought his reaction was interesting. Does he think that that's what he did? (It wasn't. At the beginning of A New Hope, Leia is smuggling classified information stolen from the Empire back to the Rebels. That's literally exactly what a spy does.) But besides that, why should the story change by swapping Luke and Leia? Pretty much the only difference between Luke and Leia, other than their upbringing, is their gender. They're both idealistic young people willing to risk their lives in opposition to the Empire — Luke is somewhat naive and Leia can be rather haughty, at least at first, but that's clearly a result of being raised as a farmboy and a princess, respectively, rather than something inherent in their personality. (I don't actually expect Prince Luke to be bisexual — the thing about Han being his love interest was mostly a joke — but there's no reason why he couldn't be, either...)

What do you guys think? Would switching Luke and Leia change Star Wars significantly?

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

You think people didn't scream that back then? I'm certain that they did, we just didn't hear them due to not having the Internet.

It's possibly that the person didn't like you making Han Luke's lover.

edited 4th May '16 3:22:29 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Perhaps, but that's my point. Leia is a strong female character, but she has the luxury of coming from a time when that wasn't considered a derogatory slur.

edited 4th May '16 3:22:56 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

I think you would essentialy write Leia out of the story.

Due to the EU being non-canon, she is no longer force sensitive, and that is not just a skill you learn.

Meaning by putting her on on a backwater world like tantione, with no connections, you effectivly remove all connection she would have to the main story.

She wouldn't be on Tattooine with no connections, she would be on Tattooine with Obi-Wan, just like Luke was.

Also, the EU isn't the only place that Leia being Force-Sensitive came up. That was established in the Original Trilogy. Just because TFA didn't go anywhere with it doesn't mean Leia doesn't have a connection to the Force.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Even if she was on tantione with Obi-wan, which I doubt he would be there with the non-force sensitive twin, she would still not be.... able to do much of any thing.

Sure, she would. Because Leia is Force Sensitive. She was just never trained as a Jedi.

Obi-Wan and Yoda discuss using her as a backup if Luke fails in Empire. Were she on Tattooine, she would be the Jedi Obi-Wan trained and Luke would be the backup.

edited 4th May '16 3:28:50 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

X5 I suspect that this is a case of term confusion, a number of people who speak about "strong female character" in a derogatory way don't mean strong female characters, they mean cookie cutter, younge adult, female, rebellious, protagonists who are all very similar. Much like you get people regularly complaining about the same dull blank slate male characters being used in fiction people are starting to get sick of getting the same cookie cutter character.

Leia isn't a character who fits into the current cookie cutter, so while she'd certainty get push back today it would be about the same as Furiosa got, not the kind that some similar seeming characters get.

Leia is not defined by being a strong female character, she'd defined by being a senator, a rebel leader, a spy, a pretty good shot and a lot more. She has depth, a number of current female protagonists are joining their male counterparts in the "death, who needs depth?" department.

edited 4th May '16 3:30:39 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

When? I don't rember a scene like that any where in the movies.

Oh and TFA does have Leia show force sensitivity, she notices the destruction of [that place that got blown up] the same way Obi-Wan did with Alderaan.

The whole "there is another", he'll even the emperor mentions it with his talk of making Leia his apprentice instead of Luke.

edited 4th May '16 3:33:03 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

According to the new canon/visual guide Leia has no Force powers, any way to use it or a way to sense things with it aside from those close to her dying. Her gift of the Force(from her father) is just a strong will unlike Luke and her son. It's quite a step down from getting her own lightsabre and having everything that's needed to be a great Jedi but choosing not to study it with Luke and the others because the Republic and galaxy needs her more than it needs one more new Jedi.

edited 4th May '16 4:04:07 PM by LordofLore

Swapped!Leia would likely have the same personality as normal Luke. On a poor farm, a lot of gender roles aren't really seen as all that important, a fact that is implied in the movies. Whatever works needs to be done needs to be done, and it doesn't matter much if a male or female does it.

I do see two differences that could emerge. First, Han meets swapped!Leia before swapped!Luke, and she's the talented pilot, so the dynamic of him leaving after they get to Yavin Four would probably play out differently. It certainly could color any future relationships between the trio (possibly killing the Love Triangle completely).

Second, we don't know to what degree the Organas would have treated a son differently, so there's a good-sized question mark hanging over Luke's personality. That could influence how a lot of things played out. He could have gotten on an escape pod himself. Or he could have been more passive during their escape from the Death Star. Canonically, we just don't know enough about Alderaan in the current canon to be sure what would happen.

edited 4th May '16 3:36:25 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

Yes, I have seen people use it in a sarcastic manner to denote that some people seem to have a narrow definition of what "strong" means.

I don't necessarily think that the character being action oriented/physically badass is important in every instance. Sure, more women who are the main combatants/treated as fearsome in action-oriented series would be nice, but I think that it's also important to consider whether a female character is interesting/gets development/etc, because those tend to be more important in making a standout character who makes an impression on the audience.

For example, a Damsel in Distress who is a fleshed out character with her own motivations who does her best to help her allies in her own predicament is a good female character in my book.

edited 4th May '16 3:39:22 PM by wehrmacht

True, though I'd be a little surprised. This is someone I actually know outside of Twitter, not someone I just ended up following randomly. I don't actually know his feelings on homosexual relationships specifically, but I wouldn't have thought it would bother him.

So... it's as if she had a strong innate connection to the Force, but no training or experience in using it? Not really interested in debating Star Wars canon (at least, it's off topic for this thread), but I think you could easily make the argument that Leia Skywalker would develop Force sensitivity (and Luke Organa would not) due to their respective upbringings, rather than saying Luke was inherently Force sensitive from birth and Leia was not.

That's a fair point, though I think that depends a lot on whether Han considers Leia Skywalker as a woman (and tries to charm her and/or hits on her) or a kid (like he treats Luke). I feel like it'd be a more platonic relationship (like Finn and Rey in The Force Awakens), but that's certainly a point where things could diverge.

Also true, though given that Leia is far from a polite, demure Proper Lady (her Establishing Character Moment is mouthing off to Darth Vader), I find it hard to see the Organas treating a daughter all that much different from a son.

edited 4th May '16 4:00:29 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I have seen misogynists/trolls using the term "strong female character" derisively towards characters who they think are pandering to feminists because they're too assertive and competent. After all, women are incapable of doing jack shit in real life, right?

edited 4th May '16 4:35:22 PM by AlleyOop

Perhaps the reason why we didn't hear so much from sexist bigots and their attitude towards Leia was the lack of medium for their voices to be heard.

If sexism was so strong that having a strong female character could ruin a movie, Star Wars Episode VII wouldn't be such commercial success.

Inter arma enim silent leges

I'm going to be that guy for a second but considering how strong Star Wars has had a presence on the internet since, well, the 90's, if sexism complains were going to arise in any community it would be that one.

Anywho, I don't see Leia getting strong complaints like Rey (which is totally what the complaint was referring to). Rey is intentionally supposed to be a powerful character, an unusually powerful character, we're supposed to see her as being a bit too strong. Now, where exactly her origins arise is another question for another movie and another thread talking about that another movie, but I doubt that they'd have written Rey the way they did if they didn't intend for there to be more to Rey than just some random force sensitive desert scavenger.

As far as the sibling swaps.... maybe? It depends on a lot of things. Is Han straight? Would he fall for Luke? Sort of an important question here, because the Han-Leia relationship is a fundamental building block of ESB. It'd be a completely different story if the subplot was a platonic bro ride through the stars against the Empire. I mean I doubt that swapped Leia would be a clone of Luke and vice versa (also that would as your friend said be sort of stupid because it'd basically just make the story a pallet swap and nothing more). Ignoring gender differences, it'd make sense for them to be different in personality, if for no reason other than to make the AU actually meaningful, because the fundamentals of most AUs is "let's take this familiar character and put them into a new scenario, and see how their personality is changed/remains the same by this new settting".

I could see ANH Prince Luke being like a more naive rebel while Leia is a more upstart and insolent ANH Luke. Maybe Darths's relation to young jedi Leia is different, because Leia shows more Anakin-esque traits than Luke did in the same position at the same timeframe of ESB.

EDIT: Eh, Strong Female Character is a thing that happens. It's this thing that happens when a female character's personality is still bland and boring, but they give them generic action hero traits so they can say that they're totally not being sexist or anything, they're just bad writers.

edited 4th May '16 5:59:29 PM by InAnOdderWay

More or less what I was alluding to earlier on.

Granted, I won't say I find this to be too recurring a problem because I don't run into that many characters like that these days, but I could see it being an easy trap to fall into.

edited 4th May '16 6:07:25 PM by wehrmacht

I'm of the opinion that 75% of sexist writing is just a result of lazy writing, and as such fighting for less sexist writing in fiction is really just an argument for better writing, and thus would be to the benefit of fiction as a whole.

Yeah I know. I've seen the Kate Beaton comic and it was dead on. Feminist Frequency touched upon it too (though they also went off the rails with it). It's a valid criticism. But there are also types who will use "strong female character" as a insult in the literal sense too.

edited 4th May '16 6:25:46 PM by AlleyOop

Star Wars had and still has strong discussions but when Leia showed up as a strong female character and a very capable one it was in 1977 and and Return of the Jedi was released in 1983, ergo, before people could shitpost on the internet complaining about studios pushing for strong female characters. By the 90's Leia was already an established character in the franchise and no amount of whining would change that.

I don't doubt people back then didn't complain or tried to dismiss Leia, but that was more than 20 years ago and when people simply didn't have an easy way to have their crappy opinions heard. Rey on the other hand arrived by the end of the last year and everyone can have their comment on youtube quoted about the "general hostility towards female characters", Rey isn't so lucky and that is because most of the audience complaining about Rey, wasn't even alive when the first 3 episodes were released, even though Rey isn't out of the mold established by Leia in Star Wars.

If the dislike of having an iconic franchise like Star Wars having a female lead was so strong, the movie wouldn't be a ticket sales record breaker.

Inter arma enim silent leges

You're rather dramatically missing the point. What I'm getting at is that there's no reason why the story of Prince Luke and Leia Skywalker would be appreciably different from the canon version of Star Wars. Okay, it would require either Luke and Han to be bisexual or Han to be female in order to maintain the Han/Leia/Luke love triangle thing, but other than that, you could keep literally everything exactly the same and it would still be the exact same story. The character's motivations don't suddenly stop making sense because their genitalia is different.

People are not defined solely by their gender. Suggesting that of course the story would be wildly different with Prince Luke and Leia Skywalker instead of Princess Leia and Luke Skywalker is more than a little silly.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.