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Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#7626: Jan 30th 2016 at 10:21:54 PM

"why is height arbitrarily related to relationship dynamics? There are way more factors that play a role in physical strength outside of height (though some admittedly are related to height)"

is not strenght as whole but HOW they look, short chararter apear more meek and easy to bully which made them poor candidate to protagonist because of that, since they have to be a) relatable and b) powerfull

" why is it so important for the man to have the control in the relationship?"

Because more often than not, the protagonist IS the one in control and since most audience is male(or so is thought) you can see where this is leading....

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
hellomoto Since: Sep, 2015
#7627: Jan 30th 2016 at 10:54:49 PM

Except in fictionland, every single male character is taller than every single female character (barring Teens Are Short and Miniature Senior Citizens).

That includes side characters, and everyone else who isn't a protagonist. Even Living Props - if there's a couple in the background for the sake of populating the scene, the woman will always be shorter than the male.

If it's to make the protagonist appear to have power, the males tall females short trend wouldn't appear so much in non-protagonists.

edited 30th Jan '16 10:56:53 PM by hellomoto

Bleddyn Since: Feb, 2014
#7628: Jan 31st 2016 at 1:13:32 AM

[up][up]That explanation doesn't work entirely. Some short people are a lot stronger then they look. I for example can do some serious heavy lifting, even able to beat some taller guys in the matter. Albeit most people wouldn't be able to tell as everything I wear for the most part looks oversized on me, hiding any muscle I have underneath.

The amount of muscle my legs have is just absurd...

edited 31st Jan '16 1:17:30 AM by Bleddyn

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#7629: Jan 31st 2016 at 8:11:36 AM

[up]You're missing the point. It's not about how it works in reality. It's about the perception people have.

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Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#7630: Jan 31st 2016 at 8:14:25 AM

Tyrion Lannister: best subversion ever to the whole "relatable male protags must be tall for the audience to swallow" viewpoint.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#7631: Jan 31st 2016 at 8:23:55 AM

[up]Except he is not a protgonist(at best that would be Jon and Dany) and he kind stop being relatable after the whole chocke-a prostitute-and kill my father thing, so you know...

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#7632: Jan 31st 2016 at 8:30:09 AM

Tyrion has the highest amount of POV chapters out of any character in the series. In a series with Loads And Loads Of Characters, he's as eligible for the title of "protagonist" as anyone else.

Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#7633: Jan 31st 2016 at 8:31:08 AM

He kind of is a protagonist... he got a fuckton of POV chapters, he's one of the few people in that thing with plot armor, and he's got enemies very personally invested in his demise.

And the readers were mad as hell when book 4 decided to emit him, were they not?

edited 31st Jan '16 8:31:30 AM by Luminosity

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#7634: Jan 31st 2016 at 8:49:24 AM

Well, Catalyn have tons of POV and she is dead...well, kind of dead, most people the protagonist as Dany and Jon since the end game aparenly involved them as center of it

But consider what happen to Jon in book 6....

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#7635: Jan 31st 2016 at 8:59:49 AM

I don't know, most of my thoughts around Jon chapters were "Look, you're cool and all, but what are you for? Why do I have to follow your ass on a wall fuck-knows-where away from everybody else?"

Same thing with Dany chapters, that eventually descended into "Sim City simulator".

But then again, I'm the supreme oddball who enjoyed Cersei's chapters the most.

As for Jon's fate... well, the show will answer that a lot sooner. Damn shame the show started to greately suck just as when it's out of book material... by the Nine, who thought what they did to Sansa in the show was a good idea?

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#7636: Jan 31st 2016 at 9:13:06 AM

Protagonists can easily be small and likeable. That was never the point. It was that female love interests are almost always shorter than the male part of the couple. It's one of the most pervasive opinions about how a couple should look. If there is a couple where the woman is taller, and it's played out as a subversion to it, it still paints the picture that it's abnormal, otherwise it wouldn't be a subversion.

If it's a homosexual couple, expect the taller one to be the dominant one. It's not always the case, in particular since homosexual couples aren't by any definition standard in the first place.

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Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#7637: Jan 31st 2016 at 9:20:25 AM

Tyrion not only has the most POV words per page than any other character as he is often not only at the heart of important events, but helping to make them happen... however they come out in the wash.

He's even the top dog from time to time, not just the underdog. But, that rarely goes well for him if it lasts more than a week. wink

We don't get nearly as close to characters like Dany, Jon, Sam, Jaime or even Stannis. Davos is our main window on him, and he's fairly important to the plot.

I still find it hard to understand people who argue the books are about Dany and Jon. Because... they're about many people. But, it's mainly through the eyes of our Mushroom: Tyrion.

Who is vital to too many things to be a simple Mushroom.

edited 31st Jan '16 9:23:24 AM by Euodiachloris

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#7639: Jan 31st 2016 at 9:29:54 AM

Dany's story frames her as The Chosen One, with her having a special destiny to save Westeros via prophecy. Widespread speculation goes that Jon is the other half of this prophecy, and that they are collectively the titular "Ice and Fire" of the series.

Which is incidentally one of the reasons why I don't like Dany, and probably one of the reasons why Tyrion is so popular: Chosen One narratives are massively overdone, and I think there's a preference towards characters who rise despite of their perceived "destiny" rather than because of it. Honestly, I hope GRRM just decides to decimate expectations by having the prophecies turn out to be superstition, and having Dany fail to fulfil her Messianic role.

Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#7640: Jan 31st 2016 at 9:45:46 AM

I like Dany...

I'm just a sucker for the "epic messianic leader beats the crap out of oppressive prior authority" setup, same reason Lelouch vi Brittania will always have a place in my heart.

And Dany is like the few heroic characters in there who's winning anything in a world that largely asserts only villains can win against other villains.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#7641: Jan 31st 2016 at 9:51:17 AM

Of course the fact that her DNA is essentially a time bomb (either she goes crazy or her heirs eventually do, it would take generations to repair the Targ bloodline with some outbreeding) doesn't bode well for the long term even if she wins.tongue

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#7642: Jan 31st 2016 at 9:56:06 AM

Dany is part of an oppressive prior authority that has already failed Westeros in the worst way possible.

I mean there are just such "divine right to rule" overtones to Dany's story that rub me the wrong way, especially since the previous rulers with that implicit divine right were tyrants just as bad as the current ones. Hell, even the most generous interpretation of the supposedly perfect Rhaegar posit that he spat in the face of one of Westeros's most powerful feudal lords by stealing his betrothed without a word of explanation, and expected there to be no consequences for it,

Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#7643: Jan 31st 2016 at 10:21:32 AM

Except the entire reason she stayed in Mareen is so she'd have something other than "divine right" to her belt. Her situation made it clear to her numerous times that her blood won't account for shit when chips fall down, and she listened.

Imca (Veteran)
#7644: Jan 31st 2016 at 10:37:40 AM

Also add me to the people that like Danny, sold off as a sex slave, she pretty much rises through the ranks more effectively then any other character, and is one of the few lady charecters with the power to actualy do much.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#7645: Jan 31st 2016 at 11:18:29 AM

She isn't sold off as a sex slave, she's married to the guy who's basically Genghis Khan. Yes, ASOIAF is a world where Marital Rape License is the norm, but there's still an enormous social difference between "noble lady and wife of a powerful Khal" and "a sex slave".

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#7646: Jan 31st 2016 at 11:43:36 AM

I don't think it's Targaryen DNA that is flawed, it's Targaryen inbreeding. Just like every possible inbreeding. Right now it doesn't seem likely that she will marry a Targ and sire little Targtargs, so I doubt the "flawed bloodline" holds much weight.

The height topic reminds me of Wolverine in the movies, who is rather faithful to his comic book counterpart...except that he is waaaaaaay too tall. And he ended up the poster boy for the franchise, despite the fact that being undersized is very much part of his character (or his origins at least, since he is based on Wolverines who are known in real life to tackle preys much larger than they are - for the very simple reason that they are among the very few predators (if not the only one) able to manage frozen meat, which means that they can feed more than once on the same carcass).

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#7647: Jan 31st 2016 at 12:10:55 PM

there's still an enormous social difference between "noble lady and wife of a powerful Khal" and "a sex slave"
Just because there are different forms of sex slavery doesn't mean it's not sex slavery.

Of course the fact that her DNA is essentially a time bomb (either she goes crazy or her heirs eventually do
Isn't she infertile now anyway?

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#7648: Jan 31st 2016 at 1:45:11 PM

My point isn't that marrying someone against their will to a person who will rape them is okay. My point is that ASOIAF has actual literal sex slaves, and Dany's not one of them. The comment about "rising through the ranks" doesn't really follow when you take into account that she started as a powerful political figure (as the daughter of a royal family) and then added military power to that, rather than starting from literally nothing (as a slave from ASOIAF would have) and being completely self-made.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Imca (Veteran)
#7649: Jan 31st 2016 at 1:55:00 PM

Her rank of which holds no value within the continent she is in.

She IS self made at this point.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#7650: Jan 31st 2016 at 2:26:36 PM

"That was never the point. It was that female love interests are almost always shorter than the male part of the couple"

Is because of protagonist usually, most time with couple in fiction one is more predominant than the other, usually the one narrative care most, and also because usually tall women are quite rare for writers and therefore it enter in that realm of "distant enought to make fun of"

"I still find it hard to understand people who argue the books are about Dany and Jon. Because... they're about many people. But, it's mainly through the eyes of our Mushroom: Tyrion."

He is but as other said, the story frames him more as pseudo obi wan kind of deal, he offer advice to other and manipulate the landscape instead of more adventure-ish feeling Dany and Jon offer, he is important chararter but...not a protagonist.

" I hope GRRM just decides to decimate expectations by having the prophecies turn out to be superstition, and having Dany fail to fulfil her Messianic role."

That would be the massive cop up of all "oh yeah, is all rubish, haha" ughhhhh

"She IS self made at this point."

Nonsense, she get her power because Khal takes a liking of her, them because of her dragons, one she find problem she cant just dracar away everything goes to shit around her.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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