Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

I'm not familiar with the manga (though isn't Vivid in the process of being aired as an anime?), but that's kind of my point. The anime itself has moved away from fanservice and toward action as its main selling point (though it's always been a mixture of the two), which suggests that more fans are there for the action than for the fanservice. Keeping some fanservice around (and releasing side material that focuses more on it) is a way to keep the fanservice fans (and their money) interested in the franchise, but it's not the primary draw. Lyrical Nanoha is an action show that has some fanservice, rather than a fanservice show that has some action.

I think that's a fairly common setup, actually. Compare Gundam Build Fighters Try, whose primary female character was given a bunch of fanservice (like wearing a skintight, midriff-bearing outfit for her "combat uniform", and got a lot of camera focus on it, such as the entire second ED) despite the rest of the series being a pure shonen mecha action show.

Right, but that's nothing I wasn't originally saying. Note the 'initially' in my original post.

Just wanted to say I love that article on that "Misogynistic hero" trope. Something I had "thought of" previously, but wasn't sure how to put into words. In particular, Gerard Butler has done several roles of that type.

And yeah, it's not cool how the new Jurassic Park is perpetuating that trope. I actually didn't think that Guardians of the Galaxy is that bad, except for the scene with Bereet (Quill's girlfriend) early on. Besides that, I think that Quill/the film's presentation of him lacks a "meanness" that is present in a lot of other uses of the trope.

Like in Iron Man, Tony seduces the Strawman Political reporter who was opposed to him and in the morning, Pepper escorts her out in a way that references taking out trash and as noted in various articles (and astutely by Tobias Drake here), Jurassic World's romance plot is all about the hero sexually harassing and belittling the heroine.

edited 19th Jul '15 9:29:02 AM by Hodor2

I saw the conflict between the two leads in Jurassic World as more of a blue collar vs. white collar thing, not a man vs. woman thing.

Same for once actually.

He never makes any references to her sex, only her job in his derisions IIRC.

You mean like all the insinuations that she is so out of touch with how the park works and how dinosaurs behave because she is either in an office or a lab while he is handling the dinos daily along other workers and mentioning how stupid it is to create a super dinosaur hybrid with human DNA is for the sake of having a new attraction?

Yeah, most of the conflict esteemed from that, aside that really really really really reeeeeaaaally fucking stupid high heels chase scene.

On Nanoha, the whole 'back to form thing' is more about how the series was leaving its magical girl roots for more of a mecha series. When you look at FORCE it looks more like Infinite Stratos than Magical Girl. Now the series brings back in a Dark Magical Girl, Friendly Rivalry and other Magical Girl tropes and tossing them into a Tournament arc, which since the MC was always a fist fighter it does look more like a Shonen Fighting Series.

While Fanservice is there, most of it comes from the actual adults or the fighters who transformed into adults iirc although not all of it, the Hot Springs Episode with everyone being the most egregious although with lots of censors.

The big problem I have with it though is they just won't make Nanoha and Fate a full couple, they go so far as to have Vivio make 'Fate-mama' and 'Nanoha-mama' join her in a bath but actually say they are an official couple? Nope! Still just 'good friends'.

edited 19th Jul '15 2:45:18 PM by Memers

Has anyone read this article on the Venture Bros and hypermasculinity.

Here is a comment:

That's a good article; thanks for the link. The Venture Bros really is a show about a whole lot of very screwed up people, and it's never pretended to be otherwise. It manages to walk the very thin line of showing us how basically all of its characters are, in their own way, pathetic losers, while still managing to make them sympathetic. I hadn't thought of it in terms of toxic masculinity before, but on having it pointed out, it's very true. Most of the characters in the show are dominated by their desires to be Men (whatever that means to them — and it's different for all of them), and the ones that succeed are as equally haunted as the ones who fail.

I find the comments a bit interesting because they all take things back to the series and its depiction (or lack thereof) of women. They (and the article) seem to take it for granted that the lack of female representation is a serious flaw in the show, even while arguing that the show is about men, masculinity, and the problems thereof. Given how few shows bring that topic up, much less make it their primary focus, I find the criticism of "why doesn't this show about the problems arising from a male-dominated society — a society of men, by men, about men, and for men — have more women in it?" to be sort of missing the point.

edited 19th Jul '15 9:01:59 PM by NativeJovian

pretty much, considering part of the venture bros is a pardoy of the aventue science of the 60 in which feature very-little women, so having a female cast will undermind the point

& Indeed.

The characters failed to live up to the very masuline ideals that they seem to espouse. Rusty is one of the prolific examples of this, he live3s under the shadow of his father and is a failure of a father himself.

Ok I saw Mad max the other day, Im on the camp that this movie dosent have to much of a femene theme than is a action women movie with some guy call mad in it, I mean there is only 3 male relevant chararter and two of then(joe and Nux) are related to furiosa in some form, with mad just...been.....there.

But while a lot of people prise Furiosa for her deeds, people fail to see there is a least OTHER moment of girl power here.....Nux.

you see, in way he is right when he said "it is not are fault" not because he is blameless but because he is pretty child, hell the name "war boys" fix very well with them: they are tought that nothing is their fault if they follow joe, make them pretty much children with firepower.

So what happen when someone finally give him some sympathic outside is demented wordview? he change side without too much thought....just like a child who wants love, in the end Nux die not like a boy but a man(please, be free of making all the "IM A MAN! *PUNCH*" as you like) thanks to the caring of one of the wives instead of his distant,tormenting "father"

or so is my view on the matter

• Pacific Rim
• Jurassic World
• Ant-Man

You know, I’m starting to notice a trend in blockbuster filmmaking. Great female protagonists and the formulaic white guy who leads the movie instead of them. I half-expect Mad Max: Fury Road follows this trend as well but haven’t seen it yet so I can’t say for certain.

I don’t know how to feel about this. I’m of two minds on the matter.

• It’s stupid that these great female characters who frankly SHOULD be the main character aren’t allowed to be. It’s great that the female lead is a fantastic character, but why can’t she be the star? That sucks.
• Is Hollywood using the generic white guy to trick filmgoers into seeing movies about great female protagonists? Like a Gateway Drug to convince audiences to accept better portrayals of women? That's kind of cool.

EDIT: Holy crap, The Fast and the Furious did this too. Come for the white guy, stay for the amazing representation of minority and female characters.

edited 28th Jul '15 9:07:25 AM by TobiasDrake

I do wonder if they need to trick people though, are guys really going to stop going to films if they have a female lead?

I guess Wonder Women will tell.

It's what Hollywood's been saying for ages. For a long time, Hollywood’s defense against making female and minority driven movies is that they don’t sell. You make a movie starring a black guy or a woman, nobody goes to see it. The audience blames Hollywood for the lack of diverse protagonists but Hollywood blames the audience for it.

This has often been seen as an excuse, but imagine for a moment if it’s not. If this is what filmmakers truly believe: you cannot sell a movie with a minority or female protagonist, people will not buy it. How do you fix that?

From Hollywood’s perspective, before the films can change, the audience must change. Before movies starring women and minorities can be made and sold, the audience has to be convinced that female and minority characters can headline a movie.

So if they demand a white guy, you have to give them a white guy, but making female and minority deuteragonists into widely-accepted standard operating procedure may be a stepping stone towards being able to reliably sell female and minority protagonists.

edited 28th Jul '15 9:24:53 AM by TobiasDrake

I am not sure Wondie is a fair comparison. She is, after all, eye candy. She has been from the very start.

And Thor isn't eye candy?

Wonder Woman is wearing BDSM gear with stars and stripes.

Thor has at best what. A topless scene?

I do not think it is an apt comparison.

That's literal, for anyone unaware of Wonder Woman's history.

How is her costume BDSM gear? I always thought you were a massive deviant, not tame as a sheep.

Edit: Wait what? Okay even if that holds for the comics it doesn't hold for the film version, I hope...

edited 28th Jul '15 9:59:23 AM by Silasw

She was originally conceived as BDSM fetish. There are a lot of old Wonder Woman comics that talk about how Amazons love being bound. Her signature weapon is a rope. She used to have a Weaksauce Weakness where she loses all her powers if she's tied up by a man, and in many instances where this happened, she would be tied to a suspiciously phallic object.

The Silver Age wasn't a great time to be anything but a white guy, really. But, like all the classic comic characters, she's grown a lot from her Early-Installment Weirdness.

edited 28th Jul '15 10:07:12 AM by TobiasDrake

This reminds me of this old "guide" for drawing comic characters.

She wears a tight fitting corset, high heeled boots, bracelets and a tiara.

I would link you their current, latexed BDSM correspondents, but I am at work.

The creator of Wonder Woman, William Moulton Marshton, was a psychologist who lived with two women, his wife and his mistress (not in the BDSM sense but in the...you know. Other sense).

Wonder Woman was also weakened when she was spanked.

DO not think this means, for me, a dislike for Wonder Woman or her conception. She is, as a manner of fact, one of the most empowering female characters there are, because the situations she was thrown in led her to question things given how she was Moulton's Author Avatar to question the things that ere questioned of him.

So it is very weird to see Wonder Woman in her early drawn style not discussing about how she is going to go back in time and fight the alternateu niverse version of whatever, but instead wondering out loud if she should worry what others think about the fact she has a pseudo lesbic relationship with Athena and other amazons only to realize she is happy with it and it feels good and thus other people can go fuck themselves. Preferably if they let her watch.

What I am saying is that Moulton was a perv. And yes, so am I. Deal with it.

edited 28th Jul '15 10:30:23 AM by Aszur

In fact I consider the concept of a BDSM women woman more amusing and intersting than a typical "mean-looking feminist who punch thing....that it" but anyway.

Tobias:...I dont want to be bad but can just out the argument in one thread? is hard to answer ir because it all over the place(that is what she said!....yeah I have to said that)

But to said: the white protagonist is usually a weakling who grows into a badass at the end, which is kind of the point, since late 90 and later heroe are having more flaws or getting some punches because otherwise they will be boring mary sues, in fact Natasha border that time to time because she is never hit or getting a hard time.

Let me put you this way: have you ever see kim possible in disney channel? if you do you will know there is many people who consider Ron(is barely competent sidekick) the true protagonist because he pull everything to help Kim, even when she is the ace.

PD: nop, Mad max dosent have that issue, in fact it run to the other way, with Mad having little to no chararterization until the point his propblem are just....there.

Honestly, I only understood about half of that, but it sounds like what you're describing is this.

edited 28th Jul '15 11:47:29 AM by TobiasDrake