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There was talk about renaming the Krugman thread for this purpose, but that seems to be going nowhere. Besides which, I feel the Krugman thread should be left to discuss Krugman while this thread can be used for more general economic discussion.

Discuss:

  • The merits of competing theories.
  • The role of the government in managing the economy.
  • The causes of and solutions to our current economic woes.
  • Comparisons between the economic systems of different countries.
  • Theoretical and existing alternatives to our current market system.

edited 17th Dec '12 10:58:52 AM by Topazan

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#16676: Aug 24th 2016 at 2:48:06 PM

supranational tax authorities are what are needed. In a "flat" world, there should be nowhere to hide because the relevant bodies can tax you whereever you go.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#16677: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:11:15 PM

[up][up]You're surprised by the guy who pushes the TPP?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#16679: Aug 24th 2016 at 6:22:44 PM

Honestly I'd rather see the IRS teaming up with Brussels and stripping companies of their tax havens.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#16680: Aug 24th 2016 at 7:51:42 PM

Snerk. You think Obama has a choice? Do you guys have any idea the shitstorm that would erupt in Congress if the administration didnt actively protect American corporate interests abroad? They'd stage a coup.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#16681: Aug 25th 2016 at 1:05:11 AM

Yeah the threat sounds empty to me, so Obama will go after EU companies dodging American taxes? Sure, go for it, they should be paying their fare share in the US as well.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#16682: Aug 25th 2016 at 1:49:34 AM

@ Ogodei: Does that mean a global tax system as well, with global tax rates?

Keep Rolling On
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#16683: Aug 25th 2016 at 5:25:10 AM

A global tax system would be ideal, but hard to implement due to bad national actors in the system now. Piketty spent a small part of "Capital" fantasizing about what global income redistribution would look like, because the wealth inequality currently passes between nations (say, a French billionaire making their fortune off of resource interests in West Africa. France can tax all they like but the laborers from Niger or Mali won't get their share of that). However, a broad international banking transparency agreement would void the worst of it in the developed world.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#16684: Aug 25th 2016 at 8:15:38 AM

There's also a problem that you can't just instantly equalize wealth between developed and developing nations without causing all sorts of crises. For one thing, a nation's wealth isn't just about some arbitrary measure of per-capita income (median or mean) but about what that nation produces and consumes compared to what every other nation produces and consumes.

Giving everyone in Niger (for example) the equivalent of 20,000 USD in annual income wouldn't magically give them access to a U.S. standard of living since they lack the necessary production and infrastructure to support it, never mind the social and political institutions to manage it responsibly. Building those up is the work of decades or centuries; there's no magic quick-fix button.

edited 25th Aug '16 8:16:43 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#16685: Aug 25th 2016 at 9:00:46 AM

Ideally, they would be given a gradually increasing share of global taxes, based on their ability to spend it on useful infrastructure and services, while adhering to international accounting standards. That would take decades, obviously.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Ramidel (Before Time Began) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#16686: Aug 27th 2016 at 10:10:42 PM

Consider that Obama isn't just wearing a neoliberal hat, he's wearing an America Fuck Yeah hat. The idea that an American company might have to play by the same rules as everyone else is kind of a new thing.

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#16687: Aug 29th 2016 at 10:43:38 PM

EU to hand Apple Irish tax bill of over 1 billion euro, source says

The European Commission will rule against Ireland's tax dealings with Apple on Tuesday, two source familiar with the decision told Reuters, one of whom said Dublin would be told to recoup over 1 billion euros in back taxes.

The Commission declined to comment on Monday.

The European Commission accused Ireland in 2014 of dodging international tax rules by letting Apple shelter profits worth tens of billions of dollars from tax collectors in return for maintaining jobs. Apple and Ireland rejected the accusation; both have said they will appeal any adverse ruling.

The source said the Commission will recommend a figure in back taxes that it expects to be collected, but it will be up to Irish authorities to calculate exactly what is owed.

A bill in excess of 1 billion euros ($1.12 billion) would be far more than the 30 million euros each the European Commission previously ordered Dutch authorities to recover from U.S. coffee chain Starbucks and Luxembourg from Fiat Chrysler for their tax deals.

Both companies and countries have appealed those decisions.

When it opened the Apple investigation in 2014, the Commission told the Irish government that tax rulings it agreed in 1991 and 2007 with the iPhone maker amounted to state aid and might have broken EU laws.

Apple employs 5,500 workers, or about a quarter of its European-based staff in the Irish city of Cork, where it is the largest private sector employer. It has said it paid Ireland's 12.5 percent rate on all the income that it generates in the country.

Ireland's low corporate tax rate has been a cornerstone of economic policy for 20 years, drawing investors from major multinational companies whose staff account for almost one in 10 workers in Ireland.

Some opposition Irish lawmakers have urged Dublin to collect whatever tax the Commission orders it to. But the main opposition party Fianna Fail, whose support the minority administration relies on to pass laws, said it would support an appeal based on the reassurances it had been given by the government to date.

The U.S. Treasury Department published a white paper last week that said the EU executive's tax investigations departed from international taxation norms and would have an outsized impact on U.S. companies. The Commission said it treated all companies equally.


Well, the fine was way over 1 billion Euros...

EU demands Apple pay Ireland up to 13 billion euros in tax

EU antitrust regulators ordered Apple on Tuesday to pay up to 13 billion euros (11 billion pounds) in taxes plus interest to the Irish government after ruling that a special scheme to route profits through Ireland was illegal state aid.

The massive sum, 40 times bigger than the previous known demand by the European Commission to a company in such a case, could be reduced, the EU executive said in a statement, if other countries sought more tax themselves from the U.S. tech giant.

Apple, which with Ireland said it will appeal the decision, paid tax rates on European profits on sales of its iPhone and other devices and services of between just 0.005 percent in 2014 and 1 percent in 2003, the Commission said.

"Ireland granted illegal tax benefits to Apple, which enabled it to pay substantially less tax than other businesses over many years," said Competition Commission Margrethe Vestager, whose crackdown on mainly U.S. multinationals has angered Washington which accuses Brussels of protectionism.

Online retailer Amazon.com Inc and hamburger group McDonald's Corp face probes over taxes in Luxembourg, while coffee chain Starbucks Corp has been ordered to pay up to 30 million euros ($33 million) to the Dutch state.

A bill of 300 million euros this year for Swedish engineer Atlas Copco AB to pay Belgian tax is the current known record. Other companies ordered to pay back taxes in Belgium, many of them European, have not disclosed figures.

For Apple, whose earnings of $18 billion last year were the biggest ever reported by a corporation, finding several billion dollars should not be an insurmountable problem. The 13 billion euros represents about 6 percent of the firm's cash pile.

As of June, Apple reported it had cash, cash equivalents and marketable securities of $231.5 billion, of which 92.8 percent, or $214.9 billion, were held in foreign subsidiaries. It paid $2.67 billion in taxes during its latest quarter at an effective tax rate of 25.5 percent, leaving it with net income of $7.8 billion according to company filings.

[[quoteblock]] "I disagree profoundly with the Commission," Irish Finance Minister Michael Noonan said in a statement. "The decision leaves me with no choice but to seek cabinet approval to appeal.

"This is necessary to defend the integrity of our tax system; to provide tax certainty to business; and to challenge the encroachment of EU state aid rules into the sovereign member state competence of taxation."

Ireland also said the disputed tax system used in the Apple case no longer applied and that the decision had no effect on Ireland's 12.5 percent corporate tax rate or on any other company with operations in the country.

Apple said in a statement it was confident of winning an appeal.

"The European Commission has launched an effort to rewrite Apple’s history in Europe, ignore Ireland’s tax laws and upend the international tax system in the process. The Commission’s case is not about how much Apple pays in taxes, it’s about which government collects the money. It will have a profound and harmful effect on investment and job creation in Europe."

When it opened the Apple investigation in 2014, the Commission told the Irish government that tax rulings it agreed in 1991 and 2007 with the company amounted to state aid and might have broken EU laws.

The Commission said the rulings were "reverse engineered" to ensure Apple had a minimal Irish bill and that minutes of meetings between Apple representatives and Irish tax officials showed the company's tax treatment had been "motivated by employment considerations."

Apple employs 5,500, or about a quarter of its Europe-based staff, in the Irish city of Cork, where it is the largest private sector employer. It has said it paid Ireland's 12.5 percent rate on all the income that it generates in the country.

Ireland's low corporate tax rate has been a cornerstone of economic policy for 20 years, drawing investors from multinational companies whose staff account for almost one in 10 workers in Ireland.

Some opposition Irish lawmakers have urged Dublin to collect whatever tax the Commission orders it to. But the main opposition party Fianna Fail, whose support the minority administration relies on to pass laws, said it would support an appeal based on reassurances it had been given by the government.

The U.S. Treasury Department published a white paper last week that said the EU executive's tax investigations departed from international taxation norms and would have an outsized impact on U.S. companies. The Commission said it treated all companies equally.

edited 30th Aug '16 4:36:46 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
PotatoesRock The Potato's Choice Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I know
The Potato's Choice
#16688: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:43:15 PM

Must-Read: Gavyn Davies: Sims Highlights Fiscal Dominance at Jackson Hole

The most far reaching speech at the Federal Reserve’s Jackson Hole meeting last week was…

…the contribution on the fiscal theory of the price level (FTPL) by Professor Christopher Sims of Princeton University…. The subject is now moving centre stage…. It has important implications for the conduct of macro-economic policy, especially in Japan and the eurozone member states…. Government debt is an asset to the private sector. Prof Sims says that a reduction in future government deficits will make this debt a more attractive investment and this will induce the private sector to hold more of the debt, thus reducing demand for goods and services. This exerts a deflationary effect on the economy….

We are all familiar with… inflation if an irresponsible government (eg Brazil in the 1980s) persists in running excessive deficits…. Prof Sims reminds us that this can work in reverse, with all the signs changed. It is clear that this is directly relevant to the effectiveness of QE by the central bank…. Viewed in this light, the ineffectiveness of QE in offsetting a chronic shortage of private demand is not that surprising…. Prof Sims suggests that Japan can escape from its deflationary trap only by explicitly joining up fiscal and monetary policy, and making both subordinate to the inflation target…

Must-Read: Martin Wolf: Capitalism and Democracy: The Strain Is Showing

Confidence in an enduring marriage between liberal democracy and global capitalism seems unwarranted….

So what might take its place? One possibility[:]… a global plutocracy and so in effect the end of national democracies. As in the Roman empire, the forms of republics might endure but the reality would be gone.

An opposite alternative would be the rise of illiberal democracies or outright plebiscitary dictatorships… [like] Russia and Turkey. Controlled national capitalism would then replace global capitalism. Something rather like that happened in the 1930s. It is not hard to identify western politicians who would love to go in exactly this direction.

Meanwhile, those of us who wish to preserve both liberal democracy and global capitalism must confront serious questions. One is whether it makes sense to promote further international agreements that tightly constrain national regulatory discretion in the interests of existing corporations…. Above all… economic policy must be orientated towards promoting the interests of the many not the few; in the first place would be the citizenry, to whom the politicians are accountable. If we fail to do this, the basis of our political order seems likely to founder. That would be good for no one. The marriage of liberal democracy with capitalism needs some nurturing. It must not be taken for granted.

Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. - Douglas Adams
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#16689: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:12:28 PM

Why is the option of liberal democracy without global capitalism not considered?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#16690: Aug 30th 2016 at 5:20:06 PM

What economic system would you suggest?

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#16691: Aug 31st 2016 at 12:01:08 AM

Global socialism?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#16692: Aug 31st 2016 at 12:10:57 AM

[up] What form of Socialism?

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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#16693: Aug 31st 2016 at 12:37:05 AM

The one I live in seems fair enough.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#16694: Aug 31st 2016 at 4:07:19 AM

I think he means Sweden. But Sweden is really just as capitalist as the rest of us. They just have a stronger set of support programs.

edited 31st Aug '16 4:12:18 AM by DeMarquis

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#16695: Aug 31st 2016 at 4:31:15 AM

Define "capitalist" as a dimension, and what being "more" or "less" capitalist means.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#16696: Aug 31st 2016 at 5:29:26 AM

A system with private (and not just personal) property where the fruits of private property are freely tradeable. You could have a purely capitalistic system with a strong social safety net, but all systems tend to be a mix because pure capitalism can be damaging to some people to the point where it's cheaper to have some restrictions and a lighter safety net.

Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#16697: Aug 31st 2016 at 7:28:06 AM

Handle, do workers in Sweden own the means of production? No? Then, it's not socialism.

Sweden is a social democracy (of the nordic model type), basically.

edited 31st Aug '16 7:36:40 AM by Quag15

AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#16698: Aug 31st 2016 at 8:25:29 AM

Otherwise known as a welfare state, the idea of how Sweden handles wealth distribution and taxation isn't new, Sweden was just one of the few countries that managed to do it mostly right.

Besides, a side effect of the Nordic Model, is how their companies have to be incredibly effective and competitive to keep their profit margins high.

edited 31st Aug '16 8:26:48 AM by AngelusNox

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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#16699: Aug 31st 2016 at 2:18:18 PM

Yeah Sweeden is not just a capitalist country it's also a globalist one, it's an EU member, a UN member (as everyone is) and participates actively in the global market.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#16700: Aug 31st 2016 at 2:51:49 PM

[up]Precisely.

[up][up]Education, risk taking and innovation are furher incentivized by making college tuition-free and financing a large chunk of the opportunity cost of studying without interest, and by developing a tight incubation system for startups and entrepreneurship.

Socialism isn't just good health and social security. It's the goverment creating clever incentive systems to get the economy where it needs to be to best cover the population's needs. Speaking of which, I think you might find this video tremendously interesting, in the wake of the current series of pharmaceutical price-gouging scandals:

Handle, do workers in Sweden own the means of production? No? Then, it's not socialism.

It is Socialism. What you have in mind is called Communism, AFAIK. At least, political parties that call themselves Socialist advocate a Welfare State, while those calling themselves Communists advocate a State Monopoly Over Everything, which is only Workers Owning The Means Of Production if the workers in question actually control the State, instead of the Cadre of Benevolent Intellectuals.

Excuse me, I need to go puke.

That's better.

Social-Democracy seems like an inappropriate term for what we're describing, because "Democracy" is not an indispensable component of a Welfare State. But I guess if you combine Welfare State with Liberal Democracy, it might be appropriate to call that Social-Democracy.

In which case, yes, a Global Social-Democracy is a very sensible thing, at least until we figure out a smarter way of quantifying and keeping track of the instantaneous worth of people's cumulative effort in terms of other people's cumulative effort.

Or something. I don't know the right words for it, and I'm deeply allergic to Marxist jargon.

edited 31st Aug '16 2:58:39 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

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