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There was talk about renaming the Krugman thread for this purpose, but that seems to be going nowhere. Besides which, I feel the Krugman thread should be left to discuss Krugman while this thread can be used for more general economic discussion.

Discuss:

  • The merits of competing theories.
  • The role of the government in managing the economy.
  • The causes of and solutions to our current economic woes.
  • Comparisons between the economic systems of different countries.
  • Theoretical and existing alternatives to our current market system.

edited 17th Dec '12 10:58:52 AM by Topazan

Linhasxoc Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
#8101: Mar 15th 2014 at 12:42:10 PM

Dang. There's a Quizno's like three blocks from my place. Went there for lunch this afternoon actually. They're not my favorite place for subs, but they were close.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8102: Mar 15th 2014 at 12:46:22 PM

So, I've been (sort of) reading up on Behavioral Economics lately, for a presentation for class I have/

Neoclassical can suck it!

optimusjamie Since: Jun, 2010
#8103: Mar 15th 2014 at 1:46:35 PM

Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?

A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution.

Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that "the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history." Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to "precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common."

The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature D Ynamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharri of the US National Science Foundation-supported National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, in association with a team of natural and social scientists. The study based on the HANDY model has been accepted for publication in the peer-reviewed Elsevier journal, Ecological Economics.

It finds that according to the historical record even advanced, complex civilisations are susceptible to collapse, raising questions about the sustainability of modern civilisation:

"The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent."

By investigating the human-nature dynamics of these past cases of collapse, the project identifies the most salient interrelated factors which explain civilisational decline, and which may help determine the risk of collapse today: namely, Population, Climate, Water, Agriculture, and Energy.

These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: "the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity"; and "the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or "Commoners") [poor]" These social phenomena have played "a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse," in all such cases over "the last five thousand years."

Currently, high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources, with "Elites" based largely in industrialised countries responsible for both:

"... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels."

The study challenges those who argue that technology will resolve these challenges by increasing efficiency:

"Technological change can raise the efficiency of resource use, but it also tends to raise both per capita resource consumption and the scale of resource extraction, so that, absent policy effects, the increases in consumption often compensate for the increased efficiency of resource use."

Productivity increases in agriculture and industry over the last two centuries has come from "increased (rather than decreased) resource throughput," despite dramatic efficiency gains over the same period.

Modelling a range of different scenarios, Motesharri and his colleagues conclude that under conditions "closely reflecting the reality of the world today... we find that collapse is difficult to avoid." In the first of these scenarios, civilisation:

".... appears to be on a sustainable path for quite a long time, but even using an optimal depletion rate and starting with a very small number of Elites, the Elites eventually consume too much, resulting in a famine among Commoners that eventually causes the collapse of society. It is important to note that this Type-L collapse is due to an inequality-induced famine that causes a loss of workers, rather than a collapse of Nature."

Another scenario focuses on the role of continued resource exploitation, finding that "with a larger depletion rate, the decline of the Commoners occurs faster, while the Elites are still thriving, but eventually the Commoners collapse completely, followed by the Elites."

In both scenarios, Elite wealth monopolies mean that they are buffered from the most "detrimental effects of the environmental collapse until much later than the Commoners", allowing them to "continue 'business as usual' despite the impending catastrophe." The same mechanism, they argue, could explain how "historical collapses were allowed to occur by elites who appear to be oblivious to the catastrophic trajectory (most clearly apparent in the Roman and Mayan cases)."

Applying this lesson to our contemporary predicament, the study warns that:

"While some members of society might raise the alarm that the system is moving towards an impending collapse and therefore advocate structural changes to society in order to avoid it, Elites and their supporters, who opposed making these changes, could point to the long sustainable trajectory 'so far' in support of doing nothing."

However, the scientists point out that the worst-case scenarios are by no means inevitable, and suggest that appropriate policy and structural changes could avoid collapse, if not pave the way toward a more stable civilisation.

The two key solutions are to reduce economic inequality so as to ensure fairer distribution of resources, and to dramatically reduce resource consumption by relying on less intensive renewable resources and reducing population growth:

"Collapse can be avoided and population can reach equilibrium if the per capita rate of depletion of nature is reduced to a sustainable level, and if resources are distributed in a reasonably equitable fashion."

The NASA-funded HANDY model offers a highly credible wake-up call to governments, corporations and business - and consumers - to recognise that 'business as usual' cannot be sustained, and that policy and structural changes are required immediately.

Although the study is largely theoretical, a number of other more empirically-focused studies - by KPMG and the UK Government Office of Science for instance - have warned that the convergence of food, water and energy crises could create a 'perfect storm' within about fifteen years. But these 'business as usual' forecasts could be very conservative.

Direct all enquiries to Jamie B Good
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8105: Mar 15th 2014 at 1:51:38 PM

Sounds almost optimistic to me.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#8107: Mar 15th 2014 at 3:45:13 PM

The key is that most of the world has the means to redistribute the wealth through non-violent means when it comes down to it. Democracy and the rule of law currently reign to a degree utterly unprecedented in the past, for while many societies have embraced rule of law before rule of the sovereign (like the Mongol Empire), the fact of the matter was that Rule of Law had to be observed by the ruling nobles for the system to function. When the chips were down, rule of law went away, and so the great society de jure would collapse.

Our societies may suffer disaster and setback, but we have the means to embrace change before setback becomes collapse (the New Deal is the perfect citation of this phenomenon in action. America could have gone the Spanish way or the Russian way, but we didn't, because legal changes preceded the tide of extralegal changes, and made them unnecessary).

Liberal democracy's greatest virtue, from a utilitarian perspective, is smooth adaptability to new situations.

Sustainability is the bigger problem, as it's hard to hold out rule of law if your country desperately needs clean drinking water and it's only flowing through the gated communities and nowhere else, but that too is a problem that has been acknowledged and is incrementally being solved on a global basis. Indeed, sustainability development is good for economics, because it helps make new people into market players who would otherwise be excluded.

Does that mean the next hundred years are going to be easy? Likely not, but ever since the Black Death, every horror the human race has endured has left us wiser and better able to deal with the next big thing.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#8109: Mar 16th 2014 at 7:53:11 PM

Retailers with pharmacies are a far cry from retailers whose pharmacy is their main vehicle. E.g., wal-mart especially will say "lolno".

Depending on the market, it could be more lucrative to drop the pharmacy and keep tobacco.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#8110: Mar 16th 2014 at 8:06:55 PM

As much as I despise smoking, I'm against this move for precisely that reason. Retailers whose primary business is not pharmacy may find it less of a loss to just dump the pharmacy, which will interfere with getting health care to the poor (who are big consumers of tobacco and supermarket pharmacies).

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#8111: Mar 17th 2014 at 8:51:21 AM

As I said in the politics thread, all you'll really do with this is drive more cigarette sales underground, costing tax revenue.

I wish there were a simple solution to smoking, but unfortunately there is not.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SKJAM Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#8112: Mar 17th 2014 at 10:00:16 AM

I imagine the immediate beneficiary of stores with pharmacies stopping the sale of tobacco products would be specialized tobacco shops, in the communities where they still exist. It's a lot harder to shame someone out of selling an item if it's 95% of their business, rather than say 5-10%. In some communities, it might even cause the creation of a new smoke shop. "Walmart killed the old smoke shop, but now that they're not selling cigarettes any more, Bob's Coffin Nails is a sure fire success!"

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#8113: Mar 17th 2014 at 10:35:31 AM

I'd say there's really no danger of driving it underground. Even if you lose large grocery stores (that usually have pharmacies and tobacco) and retail megaliths like Wal-Mart, gas stations and convenience stores will still shift most of the weight.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8114: Mar 17th 2014 at 11:00:22 AM

Socialize it!

Everyone gets a "I'm addicted to cigarettes" card (if they are). They can then purchase highly subsidized cigarettes from the US government. Cigarette companies go belly up. Addicts get their smokes. Addicts that want to sell cigarettes to people illegally get to go to jail, but I'm guessing the problems of that black market are really small.

Basically, instead of punishing current smokers-who have powerful addictions to the substance-just make it a lot harder (and less desirable) to become a smoker in the first place, and then it'll die out a slow and natural death.

Maybe, I haven't walked through this thought experiment entirely.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#8115: Mar 17th 2014 at 3:04:34 PM

but I'm guessing the problems of that black market are really small

No. Tobacco black markets are already huge, and cigarettes are already currency outside of jail as well as inside it.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8116: Mar 17th 2014 at 4:33:11 PM

Not sure why I didn't finish that sentence.

"In comparison."

You're never going to completely get rid of drugs. But the health effects of smoking as is completely dwarf the kind of impact they'd have if there wasn't a massive marketing campaign and the like for em.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#8117: Mar 17th 2014 at 4:41:25 PM

[up]Yes. But, you forgot a slight problem with that. "Social" and "liberal, free markets". tongue

SKJAM Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#8118: Mar 17th 2014 at 8:23:15 PM

On use of tobacco as a currency in prison, the federal correctional institutions and many state facilities have banned smoking altogether: http://www.no-smoke.org/pdf/100smokefreeprisons.pdf

I am told the new medium of exchange is sealed packets of mackerel.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#8119: Mar 18th 2014 at 3:08:04 PM

UK shakes up Bank of England with three new top policy appointments

Britain shook up the Bank of England on Tuesday, breaking the all-male grip at the top as it appointed two new deputy governors and a chief economist who has been highly critical of the banking industry.

The biggest single change in senior staff since the Bo E gained independence in 1997 is accompanied by changes lower down which Bank of England Governor Mark Carney said were essential to wean the bank from its previous almost-exclusive focus on targeting inflation.

"With time, a healthy focus became a dangerous distraction," he said in a lecture in London's financial district. "The reductionist vision of a central bank's role that was adopted around the world was fatally flawed.

Carney also said the central bank needed to be more coordinated to manage "great risks" in the global economy, noting super-low interest could lead to complacency in financial markets.

The most striking of Tuesday's changes is that International Monetary Fund official Nemat Shafik becomes deputy governor for markets and banking - the first woman in a top policy role since 2010. Ben Broadbent, until now an external member of the Bank's Monetary Policy Committee, will step up to become deputy governor for monetary policy. In a third move, executive director for financial stability Andy Haldane swaps jobs with chief economist Spencer Dale. Dale had been a favourite to become deputy governor but will lose his MPC seat from June when he takes over Haldane's role on the Financial Policy Committee, which regulates banks. Haldane has been unusually outspoken for a central banker, criticising banks for trying to dodge regulation and addressing anti-capitalism protesters.

The changes - made by Carney and the government - are part of an overhaul to break down barriers between the Bank's monetary policy and bank regulation wings after the Bank was given major new supervisory powers in April. Markets director Paul Fisher will lose his MPC seat to Shafik from August 1, and will move to the bank's regulation arm. Fisher has been under fire from lawmakers over the BoE's handling of alleged manipulation of London's currency market.

When asked by a reporter if there was a connection, Carney said the shake-up predated the foreign exchange scandal.

"The Bank needed a pretty major shake-up and it is certainly getting one," said Jonathan Portes, director of Britain's National Institute for Economic and Social Research.

Portes said the new appointments should breathe fresh life into the central bank's macroeconomics team - which had a patchy forecasting record and was too inward-looking - and that Shafik had the right temperament to tackle market abuse.

"She's pretty tough and at the moment you need someone who is prepared to be fairly tough with the London financial sector," he said.

But Domenico Lombardi, a former IMF board member who now works for Canadian think tank CIGI, said: "She will have some catch-up to do, because clearly banking and markets were not at the core of her responsibilities at the IMF."

Mind you, there are also some interesting moves in the Bank of England. According to this article from The Guardian, the BoE has recently published an interestingly and not-too-long paper, which confirms some views about the Modern Monetary Theory. So, what does everything think of the ideas espoused in MMT?

For a quick idea, here is the conclusion of that BoE paper:

Conclusion

This article has discussed how money is created in the modern economy. Most of the money in circulation is created, not by the printing presses of the Bank of England, but by the commercial banks themselves: banks create money whenever they lend to someone in the economy or buy an asset from consumers. And in contrast to descriptions found in some textbooks, the Bank of England does not directly control the quantity of either base or broad money. The Bank of England is nevertheless still able to influence the amount of money in the economy. It does so in normal times by setting monetary policy — through the interest rate that it pays on reserves held by commercial banks with the Bank of England. More recently, though, with Bank Rate constrained by the effective lower bound, the Bank of England’s asset purchase programme has sought to raise the quantity of broad money in circulation. This in turn affects the prices and quantities of a range of assets in the economy, including money.

edited 18th Mar '14 3:13:00 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#8120: Mar 18th 2014 at 3:31:48 PM

I did some quick research on MMT and while it is specifically correct in terms of how it views a fiat currency issuer's powers to create money, Krugman feels that it misunderstands the inflation issues, particularly as they relate to the future solvency of a highly inflated currency.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#8121: Mar 18th 2014 at 5:40:10 PM

My brother says that he was talking to his doctor, who happens to be from India, about investments. The doctor was saying that the US dollar gradually gets weaker and weaker with each year, and therefore it's best to invest in other currencies or things such as gold. I disagree about the gold (it's been going down in the last few years), but I understand the other currencies thing. This is the opinion of someone outside the country - he doesn't share my brother's belief that the dollar will crash, but does believe that it's going down in value.

Also, I mentioned to my brother that Singapore has a lot of government control. He wanted to know how. What examples of government control is there? I know they have government-owned companies that compete against private companies, but what other forms of government control? I heard of them having a good welfare system, for instance?

edited 18th Mar '14 5:41:09 PM by BonsaiForest

Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#8122: Mar 18th 2014 at 5:53:04 PM

Singapore has laws. Lots and lots of laws about what you, as an individual, can and cannot do. I'm pretty sure chewing gum is illegal there, at least in public, for example.

Not Three Laws compliant.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#8123: Mar 18th 2014 at 6:02:15 PM

The dollar, along with all other currencies, decreases in value year over year, due to a process called inflation. This is a natural function of money and is not in any way a bad thing.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#8124: Mar 18th 2014 at 6:05:11 PM

Yeah, not the same as the dollar crashing, I realize. But if other currencies inflate at a lower rate, or deflate, they'll be worth more dollars (of course, this doesn't mean that the people of those countries necessarily have the best standard of living).

[up][up]I need specific examples of how Singapore's government has control over aspects of the economy.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#8125: Mar 18th 2014 at 6:12:18 PM

According to some earlier discussion, Singapore's major investor — the company that allocates resources to increase production capacity — is government-owned and operated, with elected officials as the stakeholders.

Currency values change all the time. If you want to speculate on currencies, you are welcome to do so, but it's risky stuff. Believe it or not, that is not the primary concern of most people and has very little to do with the solvency of the nation issuing it.

edited 18th Mar '14 6:13:28 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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