Racism, Sexism, Antisemitism and other things one can unwittingly be

...and if they do, they get turned away, or arrested as the man is presumed to have been violent towards the woman — and we've got a trope for this with more examples: Abuse Is Okay When It Is Female on Male *

edited 8th Sep '12 2:45:27 AM by Greenmantle

: That's not true; there actually are many gender neutral domestic violence shelters, they just don't get NEARLY as much press so most abused men aren't aware of them.

That really depends on where you live. There was a man in (I think) Ontario, Canada, who called government officials to find domestic violence shelters for men but they didn't know of any. And even if there are gender-neutral shelters, why are there women-only shelters but none for men-only? Why do we need to protect a woman from all men but no men from other women?

I highly doubt that there are no male-only domestic shelters. There aren't enough, but speaking in absolutes closes a very delicate discussion that doesn't need it.

The honest truth is that it has been mainly men beating on women, men treating women like property, and men being prosperous at the expense of women. We have thousands, if not tens of thousands, of years with this as the norm.

This is a far greater barrier to overcome, especially since men are still making double than women for the same work, (in America) men are still making policy decisions that alienate and target women-wage gap and women's health, and men are still the only ones allowed in certain military capacities, regardless of combat or not, such as submarine service.

We have made signifigant progress, but as this thread has pointed out, we can't really make good policy changes due to cultural pressures. And most cultural pressures don't change without reaction to some sort of policy.

edited 8th Sep '12 6:55:50 AM by Gabrael

There are men's only shelters, at least in the U.S. My mom used to volunteer at one. Also, this thread makes me think of a bit by Donald Glover, where he says that most men have "crazy girlfriend stories" that they laugh about but most women's "crazy boyfriend stories" end with them in a wheelchair.

Well, at least with health women seem to be treated better by far. They live longer, yet they get more money into the research of diseases they are more likely to get.

If you speak about healthcare, yeah I've got no idea about the situation in the US. I'm pretty sure the treatment is fairly equal here in Germany (though I could make some research to confirm that).

In America no healthcare is equal. People either have it or don't. Those who do have it are constantly trying to take it away from those that don't, especially women's reproductive system health.

Now if you're referring to things like breast cancer, that is almost completely funded privately. It's just been set up to be very self sustaining so while government donantions are not shirked, they aren't needed as badly.

The Susan G Komen Foundation is an expert at making fundraising deals with existing commercial manufacturers.

Yeah, that the US health care system isn't really the best is well known around the world. When the money comes from private sources, that just shows a societaly bias. I still think it's not fair, but regarding the health system there are a lot of inequalities both through politics as well as economics.

Societial bias is going a more than a little far. I have never heard of anyone campaigning as hard as Susan G Komen in the health/medical scene. Where are the major campaigners for Prostate or Testicular Cancer? You think men would be invested in that.

Society is fickle. Komen is as successful as it is because they pushed themselves to be. They made corporate deals, they called the media, they made breast cancer (which affects men too) a branded icon with the pink ribbons.

Komen made society care. If they can do it, any other group can to.

Did anyone watch that episode of Archer where he developed breast cancer? It was surprisingly sensitive.

Getting society care about men's problems is immensely more difficult than about women's problems. There was an article about how the number of women dying at work increased immensely. The fact was the number stayed about the same. Men had lost their jobs and therefore less of them died at work, making female work deaths more notable in the statistics. 2 problems men had (unemployment and work deaths) were completely ignored and a problem of women was completely made up.

Also, Gabrael, could you please stop to say on every occasion that men could simply stop their own problems? There are at least some issues where I could argue that women could solve it if they really wanted to, but I won't do so (if I think before I write), because societal problems often go deeper than one side would be able to solve.

I think the women's health issue thing is because of the whole having babies thing, which requires contact with a doctor. Even if you don't want to have babies, a woman has to go to a gynecologist to get a prescription for birth control which is an automatic check for gynecologic cancers and etc. If men were required to go to a proctologist to get birth control throughout their virile years, we would have less of a problem with men's health issue awareness.

Then again I've also heard the argument that birth control should not be prescription, so that would be evening the playing field in other ways.

"Getting society care about men's problems is immensely more difficult than about women's problems."

That's probably because most problems females face are usually due to Male stupidity, while most problems men face are due to Male and Female stupidity.

edited 8th Sep '12 8:27:34 PM by DeviantBraeburn

The only time I have even eluded to men stepping up for themselves was in fundraising for men's health issues. To which I will say: go for it guys. Nothing's stopping them there.

I could say that it sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder against women and/or feminism and I wouldn't blame you. There are many people who claim to be feminists and they're really just hateful she-woman man haters. There are also the groups that claim feminism but are too ignorant or misguided on the issues to make sincere progress past shooting themselves in the foot.

But if you keep dropping broad statements with no source to contextualize it, I'm gonna question you and push you to specify your point better. Are we talking about German healthcare or American? German is socialized so I'm going to bet it's better. America rates between 53-58 (depending on the study) in eduation. Finland is in the top 3 if not number consistantly. Black men die from diabetes at a higher rate then white men on top of higher prision sentences if you're in America. Canada would probably have different figures for different reasons.

So give me something more specific or drop me a reliable source and I don't have to fight my urge to poke at context holes so often.

You're kind of over looking the hostile political environment about anything male focused with interest gurops Gab.

edited 8th Sep '12 9:06:10 PM by joeyjojo

"I could say that it sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder"

Wait, who are you talking to?

edited 8th Sep '12 9:47:53 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Here's something relevant to watch.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/5465-Relics

Bob Chipman's basic argument is that some early "lost world" enthusiasts had a hard time accepting the possibility that relics of ancient civilizations in Africa were made by black Africans themselves. The "lost world" trope has bled into mainstream media (aliens building the pyramids and all that), and Chipman brings up a good point about how this is a sort of holdover from a belief with a basis in narrow-minding thinking about indigenous peoples. Even if you don't like him, it's worth watching.

Hostile political climate for raising money for testicular cancer?

I want to see a source for this.

We've had several million men marches, fathers for a (insert random cause), and other groups for various political causes. The United Methodist Denomination is very active in men only minestries and activist groups.

Have we had them to the same degree or volume as women? No. But we haven't had as strong a reason for it before. But no one's stopped it or called it wrong.

EDIT: that was directed to Besserwisser.

edited 8th Sep '12 9:16:05 PM by Gabrael

@Gabr: fair enough I see what I can find.

The intro to do Ancient Astronauts trope page use to be about how the trope was racist with the use of it in media an afterthought.

For my statement of why you can't say men's problems could be easily solved of men there are 2 reason. First there are reasons why men behave like they behave. You have to change that reasons in order for the behaviour to change. Secondly not all factors are in the control of men or in the control of men who would make a change. There are interest groups that are opposed to equal spending on women and men on several issues. It's difficult to work against opposition instead of with support. To say men are responsible for solving their own problems is like saying African Americans should commit less crimes if they want to spend less time in prison. While it's true that decreased crime rates would result in less prison times, this statement ignores the reasons for this behaviour as well as reasons for imprisonment rate other than actual criminal activity.

On the topic of health care, yeah, Germany pretty much invented it and it's kind of a source of national pride of me. Most problems we have with it are due to it being so damn outdated and the difference in treatment of patients from different health insurance companies. I'm not aware of a gender problem at the moment.

@BW that would make sense if I ever said anything like that. But considering I didn't, except for the fundraising possibly, you're directing your fustration to the wrong source.

I might have gone a bit into a rant here. Most of my statements should be considered a bit more generally, I think, as there is a problem with perceiving men as victims in our society. Gab, you used a kind of rhetoric I really didn't like. So I'm sorry if this got to personal but the reasons why diseases only or mostly affecting women get more funding than male diseases goes deeper than just one person going on a campaign. There is a societal bias towards men's suffering. Otherwise we would hear a lot more complaints about work deaths of men on the media and a lot more concern about the lower life expectancy of men and other men's issues.

@ Besserwisser

Look, you seem like a nice guy with good intentions. But I think how you think you're coming off isn't what's matching with me. I have this problem to. Text doesn't help like voice does. So let me break this down for you:

You aren't even ranting. You're just throwing stuff out there. At least when Kanye West said George Bush hated black people, he had the context of a Katrina fundraiser behind him which actually made some sense as opposed to him saying it on the red carpet or something.

We can't talk general because it doesn't make sense and there is always an exception to your generality. You say society doesn't care about men who die in the workplace and leave it at that? That makes you look narrow minded and bitter because last I checked, over 90% of our soliders, mercs, NGO workers, and missionaries who are killed overseas are men.

More police officers, fire fighters, and to a lesser degree EM Ts who are killed on duty are men than women. Park rangers are starting to be targeted by drug runners as the use the coverage of the forests in Louisana and Arkansas for travelling. I think people give a damn about them. See how a simple article or more specific context can really help?

Even saying I'm using rhetoric is a loaded term. Remember I was one of those who corrected you on no male only domestic shelters? I don't take you personal, but you're not really giving me the chance to take you seriously either.

Look at the Lance Armstrong foundation, Livestrong. They get TONS of support. And what did he have? Testicular cancer. If I were a man I would find it pretty condesending to have a woman tell me she gets it and wants to be the spokesman for my prostate cancer fundraiser. I don't have a prostate. I don't know how it feels to be kicked in the balls. But then again, you don't know what labor feels like and I do.

So where are these hurdles? Where is the proof that society doesn't care? Care, either for or against can only happen if people know. That's why I asked Joey to show me where fundraising for a male only disease has been shut down or treated hostile.

You make it sound as if there are picketers outside of a proctologist's office saying they don't want their taxes going for viagra.

If it's that bad, then please, tell me where. But otherwise, the only thing I can say is that in America at least (can't speak for other countries) there is a big ignorance about men's issues like male domestic abuse or possibly male specific health problems. Curing this ignorance does mean society needs to listen but it does mean men will have to speak up.

It would suck to be the man who decides to step forward as an example and advocate for male domestic abuse victims. But it also sucked to be the AI Ds sufferer, the rape victim, the human slave, etc. Life sucks, but without people willing to talk, then there isn't even the chance to listen and accordingly, a chance to make progress.

I guess I generalized and oversimplified things here and I apologize for that. Also, I might have been out for confrontation too much, without much reason for that.

As for caring, I just get the feeling the society cares less about men suffering than women. That we are indifferent to serious problems of a person because of his gender was an overstatement, but I think we could and should care more.

One example: in the UK men can retire with 60, women with 65. Women also live longer. Media coverage, from what I've seen, seems to focus on the problems that come with having a long retirement time. While there are issues, is it really appropiate to spend more time on them then the fact that men have to work longer and die sooner? Where is the balance?

The problem with informing people is that media should and do have the means to do so. They know what's going on, yet they consciously or subconsciously decide to focus on women when people suffer. I want people to objectively observe and report the issues we have, yet this isn't what I see when I look around.

I guess I'm just depressed from what I've seen and I see little chance for change.

Women live longer mainly due to biological evolution more so than societal pressures. Women having to get annual exams is a better catch all for most of the problems we can have. Men aren't as willing to go to the doctor's.

But was that a mistype men retire at 60 and women at 65? because if men can retire earlier, that would give them the chance to enjoy their shorter life.