Scottish Independence

There's a lot of uncertainties to be sure. But the first step towards getting where you need to be is recognising that where you are isn't good enough. And with Scotland basically immune from the right wing lunacy gripping England, France and others, getting away from such a toxic environment is absolutely what we need to do.

I don't know that we're definitely economically ready, but I'm willing to take the chance. Partially perhaps because I did something similar on a personal level last year by leaving a job that was making me physically and mentally ill, giving up my flat, leaving my friends behind and moving halfway across the country towards an uncertain future. I spent 8 months without a job and with little money, but I've got one now and am surging forward with my life. I'm confident Scotland can do the same.

EDIT: What is it with me and page toppers the last couple of days?

edited 4th Apr '14 2:05:44 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

Wait, what? When has the MoD said this? The MoD has said it would be ludicrously expensive to shift the nuclear submarine base. Not that it would be dangerous.

I would be bitter at the attitude that England is a lost cause, only...yeah, England's a lost cause. Christ, I hate this country sometimes.

edited 4th Apr '14 2:30:25 PM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Then why does the Scotland and the SNP want to get back into the "toxic environment" of the European Union?

Keep Rolling On

The European Union is fixable and has a lot of positive aspects to it. Certainly, given a choice of allies, I favour the EU over the US. And it's just madness to suggest that Britain can be a player on the international stage without one or the other as a strong ally. China and Russia obviously aren't options, the Empire is dead and the Commonwealth is not a viable alternative.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

The benefits of EU membership far outweigh the risks, unlike membership of the Union. I mean, I don't particularly like the indyref so far - in fact, there's a good chance I won't bother arranging a postal vote when I'm out-country later this year. To be brutally honest I wouldn't trust either the Yes campaign or the No campaign to organize a piss-up in a brewery or to tell me the time of day. I'm not of the school of Scots who take the parochial and pathetic view that patriotism can be measured in Braveheart-units. But at the same time, I don't feel particularly appreciated. The UK, for the last 30 years, has been run by the English centre-right, for the English centre-right.

Personally, I'd like Scotland to push for Nordic Council membership and links and integration with Scandinavia as our primary interest. Ireland too.

Schild und Schwert der Partei

I would definitely favour Nordic links over any other. I also don't trust either campaign, and so I won't make meaningless gestures or guesses about the economics of it all. We won't know until/unless it happens.

I also don't worship Salmond or the SNP; they're good at running the country generally, but in so far as the indyref is concerned, they're a means to an end I believe in, not Gods whom I necessarily want running the country after independence.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

I suppose it works, since Scotland's historical roots are in part Nordic — weren't the Western Isles Nordic until quite recently? I'm just curious about devolution for the various regions of England — would that be welcomed in Scotland?

edited 4th Apr '14 3:26:56 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On

Shetland was annexed by Scotland in 1472. Interestingly, the Shetland Islands seem to be pretty set against independence.

As for English devo - not our problem, really. I can't see why Scotland would oppose it.

Schild und Schwert der Partei

Though the Shetlands did recently see a BT leader demolished by a Yes speaker in a debate, as I reported in this thread though I couldn't find an unbiased link about it. Shetlands are pro-Nordic so see Edinburgh and London as two twisted sides of the same coin, neither of which represents their interest. Ditto to slightly lesser extents all the other island areas.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

Edinburgh is for the tourists. Anything that matters happens in Glasgow, or should do.

Schild und Schwert der Partei

@ Achaemenid:

Aren't the Shetland Islanders pushing for devolution for themselves as well, having the same problem with Holyrood that Holyrood is having with Westminster?

edited 4th Apr '14 3:40:16 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On

Yes, but the Teuchters have always been like that. It's fairly unlikely to happen.

Schild und Schwert der Partei

Yep, Shetland and Cornish devolution are basically equivalents and basically never gonna happen. There's always someone on the Shetlands trying to court Norway with a view to having them annex the Shetlands, but the love the Shetlands have for Norway is largely unreciprocated. The Scandinavians like Scotland, and appreciate the historical links, but don't see us as family.

Least as far as I understand it. Perhaps the fitting analogy, for Game Of Thrones or A Song Of Ice And Fire fans, is that they see us as the Starks see Theon Greyjoy. For non-fans, Theon is the son of a rebel against the Stark family's own king, a rebellion the Starks crushed on behalf of said king, taking the boy as ward/hostage to prevent future rebellions. The boy was essentially brought up as a Stark but treated like a stray dog or unwelcome guest. When he eventually returned home, his father rejected him as being too much like a Stark to ever be his son again.

That's probably about how Norway views the Shetlands though with less bitterness

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

How realistic is this going to be in passing? I can't say the I've been pleased with the way the U.K.'s has been running this in the last 30 years but I would be upset to see a balkanised Britain myself

hashtagsarestupid

I wouldn't want to call this year's referendum one way or the other. Barring wholesale political change in the UK, it might well happen eventually. The ultimate fact is that Scotland is drifting leftward whilst Middle England drifts rightward. A political split is inevitable anyway. In some ways, a Scottish exit, Irish unification, and even Welsh nationalism might be a good thing, in the sense that it could jolt England from the the rightward course it's been sleepwalking into for the last three decades.

edited 6th Apr '14 5:33:02 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei

I didn't think left-right division makes that much of a difference to the national pride movement, does it? Parties come and go atfer all.

hashtagsarestupid

Well, it kinda does when we're vastly outnumbered. A left or right wing American can console themselves with the idea that they'll capture the swing votes next election. Scotland hasn't been decisive in a UK election for decades. Ultimately, when it comes to deciding who runs the nation, we don't matter.

Schild und Schwert der Partei

I see.

So if The Labor Party was voted in tomorrow (and I mean the actual Labour party not this 'New Labour' Imposter wearing it's face) would that pretty much cool the jets of secessionism?

hashtagsarestupid

It certainly wouldn't hurt.

Schild und Schwert der Partei

I'm not sure that Labour Party exists any more^note  Not since the late 1980s — certainly those that would vote for it have been effectively pushed to the margins, if not totally disenfranchised^note  Which means they're ripe for taking, by anyone who wants to. Nigel Farage wants to take them.

Keep Rolling On

I feel that no one country in the UK should be decisive in choosing whether a left or right wing government should come to power; it doesn't strike me as fair if, say, Wales, NI & England want [x] party in power but due to Scotland [y] party comes into power instead (Replace "England" with "Scotland" or whichever combo pleases you). It's better that there's a consensus one way or another rather than having one state be the only one that really 'matters', so to speak. As a result, that argument doesn't hold much water with me.

Speaking of unconvincing arguments, I feel that wanting to seperate from the rest of the United Kingdom is a rather extreme response to right wing governments being voted in. It makes me wonder what the rationale would be if it was Labour or a similar party in power.

I do agree though that the influence of Scotland, NI & Wales should be increased in the General Election, though, in order to make it more representative (after all, all of the United Kingdom will be governed by Westminster, not just England). How that would be achieved is something I am not sure of.

Locking you up on radar since '09

That's probably never going to happen. It's a huge clusterfuck, and although it would be nice to have the six counties back, the Unionists will probably start an insurgency and we really can't deal with that.

They do have medals for almost, and they're called silver!

They already have increased representation, if my memory holds true (which it may not) than constituencies outside England are deliberately smaller than English ones, so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish all have more M Ps per person than the English do.

In fact the largest Constituency by population (and the only one over 100,000) is in England — it's the Isle Of Wight^note  The population were and are strongly against any changes in boundary, especially sharing boundaries with the Mainland.

Keep Rolling On

@Silas:

Ah, fair point then.

Locking you up on radar since '09