MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't like that article either though for a bit of different reasons. Particularly the part about "dying for women is ok" is incredibly offensive. Sure, if the future of a population is determined by the number of females surviving their protection is utterly necessary. And when you would say there are things worth dying for, I would completely agree. But saying that it's a good thing that men die sooner than women in a world where overpopulation is a problem and equality is supposedly valued is simply dumb.
Otherwise I think elevating one gender in certain aspects is better than offending one gender overall and one doesn't necessarily follow the other. And one could argue that pointing out good things about men poses a positive counterpoint to demonizing of men.
Nemesis
My problem with evo-psych is that it's not essentially scientific; it's unfalsifiable. It's taking one's preconceptions about the way people work and then trying to find justifications for them; sometimes this results in interesting but unprovable theories, but trying to pass it off as remotely scientific bugs me.
A brighter future for a darker age.
Bingo. If you're going to use Psychology... use the whole thing. And cite. 
Not really. Quite a lot of it actually is falsifiable. Some of it being sketchy doesn't make all of it wrong.
I think the problem here is that a lot of people don't know where the line between "evo-psych" and "anthropology" is. I've seen legitimate anthropologic studies dismissed as "evo-psych" and vice versa.
Legs of Justice
Honestly, I read the article that is currently being discussed, but I read it twice in different moods. It was interesting to see my emotional bias...
When I was happy, I was like: "This is interesting, but I have many issues with the validity of these statements."
When I was sad, I was like: "Damnit, I know what it is like to be expendable at various parts of my life. Being a man can suck."
Fortunately, I was able to reconcile my thoughts back to the point where I realized being a male can suck at various times and scenarios as well, but being a female can suck at various time and scenarios as well. (I probably should have been more careful with my choice of words in this paragraph, on a further re-reading)
This made me realize that although I usually think gender issues affect anyone, dealing with them is part of life (for everyone) and it is important to stay grounded while you deal with them. But how does one separate their emotions from how they deal with gender issues? I'm just curious for anyone's thoughts on this.
I totally hate my avatar. Just saying.
Moar and Moar and Moar
The problem isn't if it's falsifiable or not...I think the term "evo" is mistaken as it indicates that these things are largely biological, instead of cultural, and as well that these things are 'natural' and 'unchangable".
I don't think that Evo Psych is actually these things necessarily, but unfortunately it's presented as such far too often, thus you get the criticism of the entire field.
Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
Legs of Justice
My problem with a lot of Evo Psych is the over emphasis on nature over nurture.
I totally hate my avatar. Just saying.
@ darkclaw, honestly for me it wasn't until I started teaching different religion classes and participating in panel discussions with guys who'd been in the field longer than my own life that I learned my "off switch".
It is also important I note that being in those situations were also very taxing on me keeping that off switch off.
It's just conditioning. It's not easy. I've my own beserk buttons that it's hard for me to reel myself in with. But eventually, the more situations that I'm forced to go through, the thicker my skin gets and the more polished my objective lens gets.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Tell me about it. If chimps, bonobos, baboons and guerillas can have distinct cultures from group to group... we've been doing it a while.
Heck: if we think we've got gender issues, it's not a patch on these guys... Australopithecus robustus
(yes, I prefer Australopithecus... if you want to argue, PM me — it's just like I still think we're actually Homo erectus sapiens, in actuality... and that's over-pretentious, too). 
Even though we're probably not directly linked with them, and their sexual dimorphism was something to behold... I rather doubt the gender roles were identical across all the bands of A.robustus there ever were, but... they really would be something to behold.
edited 18th Oct '12 4:46:32 PM by Euodiachloris
Legs of Justice
@ Darkclaw, I try. 
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
This.
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
If only humans could just chill and be less threatened by each other. Le sigh.
In good news though, my PTSD male/child treatment program is going so well, I just found out my grant has been approved so now I can pull in non Iraq and Afghanistan vets. So those from the first Gulf War and even a few Korean vets and their children (maybe even grandchildren) can now get some much needed care!
Congrats Polarstern!
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Yes, that is excellent!
Happy New Year!
@Polarstern: That's great, but what do you do exactly?
That's seriously good news. Congrats!
Thanks guys! Between the success of our adoptions and the progress with work I am just flooded with new hope for humanity!
@Joey, I am a counselor who specialized in pediatric trauma and mental disorders. I've been working mainly with the children of PTSD suffering vets, but after enough progress I pull in the parent/uncle/granddad and have them participate in the counselling as well to try and help them reconnect.
So far I have 4 Iraq vets and 3 Afghanistan vets, all men. All are fathers except 2: one is an uncle, one is a brother. The kids are both genders ranging from 5 years to 11 years.
The effects of PTSD often ripple through the generations because of how hard and varied it can express itself. And even though we've been studying "shell shock" since WWI, we are seriously still trying to figure out how to adapt and rehabilitate those who suffer for it. It's such an individualize condition, much like substance abuse. One never really is cured from it. One just learns how to not be as consumed by it.
This has been a very enlightening experience. I'm grateful for it.
"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Moar and Moar and Moar
That's some really good stuff there. Best of luck with it.
Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
I've seen some of the guesstimations into how PTSD may have helped form a some of the... uh.. "backbone" for male cultural stereotypes that are now coming back to haunt us. I mean, think about it: for most of Western European history... somebody was at war at all times, producing casualties not only in the troops, but in the civilians caught up in it all.
That would leave an impact.
More data is needed, but... it's an interesting field to poke into and try to examine.
edited 22nd Oct '12 8:32:52 AM by Euodiachloris
Actually, it's to fiction we can find more honest depictions, as odd as that sounds. Beginning with examples like Septimus from Woolf's Mrs. Dalloway from WWI, it is writers who have done more investigation and interviews into individual cases.
In the case of Septimus, here was a Victoria Cross as well as other combative awards receipant. However, what the public failed to realize was being awarded those ranks meant he went through some pretty horrific mess. So he was brave as long as he was a good Englishman. But as soon as word of his suicide leaks, (he was hallucinating and was about to be institutionalized), he's a coward.
Ooo, I think I just found my next research project...hmmm....
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Hmmm... there're a fair few personal diaries in places like the Imperial War Museum... True, that's more History than Sociology, but... sometimes, necessity makes for very strange bedfellows. And, even in the cold, hard records of discharges, charges, casualties, etc. kept by various forces over the past few hundred years and which are still on file...
Hmmmmm... there's certainly mineable data.
Oh, boy, another article about gender that leans primarily on ill-supported evo-psych theories. This we need.
The longer I live, the more disillusioned I get with "masculinity" and "femininity" as concepts. Why can't we agree that some traits are good and can/should be pursued by anyone and some traits are bad and should be avoided by everyone? Why do we have to tie it to gender like this? Rhapsodizing about the supposed innate virtues of one gender is very close to disparaging the other gender by comparison, and very often leads to exactly that.
Stuff what I do.