Sexism and Men's Issues

I am panamanian, from the birthplace of reggaeton, so I must defend it at least on cultural grounds. If nothing else.

Funk Carioca is from my birth place and I don't even think about defending that thing.

Inter arma enim silent leges

Because I am sure I can find good songs of the type, for we can see the evolution of the genre from early reggae to similar to dancehall and an evolution in romantic themes, not all songs are about sex. And to think that is to be only acquitted with the most prevalent modern day songs.

Showing my support to the recent Supreme Court decision. I'll be back in black eventually.

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same-sex marrige? sure, go for it, more oportunity to women? of course? tobias drake chaing his avatar? that is just WRONG.

Almost all songs are about sex, or ego boost, and the romantic songs are pure narm or sex song tone down

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

You can find a few good songs in the Carioca Funk but the sheer majority is pure crap, one or another talking about social issues and violence against favela denizens but the rest is probably drug and crime apology or pornography in the form o music.

Inter arma enim silent leges

I won't deny the fact that reggaeton is mostly represented with songs about bragging and party and sex, but that's what most popular genres do. The same could be said about salsa. The point being, have you guys listened to Flex(Nigga in spanish markets)? Or Joey Montana? Or El rockie? Or Makano?

edited 30th Jun '15 5:04:49 PM by vandro

You know, this is just a thought, but maybe the problem would be alleviated if we stopped telling men that their self worth is directly connected to how successful they are with women.

Yeah, go ahead and tell me that I'm prioritizing male feelings over female safety or whatever, but I still think it's a problem. If we started telling men that rejection isn't a big deal, and that "no" doesn't necessarily mean "you're worthless and ugly and you should just kill yourself," maybe it'd make things better for everyone.

And I know that that's not the message that women are trying to get across when they say no (well, most of the time anyway), but here's the important part; that's the message we're trained to internalize. Understand that I'm blaming society for this, not women.

On the current topic, is Elephant Man considered reggaeton? He had some pretty bangin' jams back in the mid-2000s.

edited 1st Jul '15 8:20:10 AM by TyeDyeWildebeest

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.

Elephant Man is usually located between dancehall and reggae fusion.

You're not prioritizing male feelings over female security.

This isn't a zero sum game where you have to pick a side. Gender problems are not isolated instances, they are spider webs that criss-cross and intersect. But if you start picking out the knot on one side, it makes it easier for the rest to dismantle.

You are exactly right. If men didn't feel like their masculinity and their being is tied into sexual prowess or dominance, then they would probably be more willing to accept it when a woman turns them down. If guys don't have the pressure for validation like that, then they won't have as much need to resort to shady tactics. Teaching men it's safe to communicate and be direct with their feelings allows for improved communication with potential partners, which could shut down not just conflict, but more instances of rape.

I am all for empowering and educating men to feel safe to express themselves, explore various ways to be a man, and encourage them to have healthy perspectives of themselves and others.

Everyone wins. Women will be safer by default if men are educated and supported so they don't become sources of abuse or violence. Men will have a better quality of life and become more healthy and engaging individuals.

Yes. Let's address these issues. We all can only win for it.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

No, saying that changing male attitudes (or rather, society's attitudes toward males) to something healthier than "your self-worth is directly correlated with your sex appeal" isn't dismissive to women or belittling to rape victims or anything like that. The two are related issues. It's not surprising that, if you tell men that they have to have sex in order to be a Real Man™, then some people will go to unacceptable extremes to have sex (and thus prove their worth). If you tell men that having sex (or not) doesn't reflect on their self-worth, then not only will you end up with men with healthier attitudes, you'll also end up with fewer rapes.

Edit:

edited 1st Jul '15 8:47:00 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Or indeed, victims of abuse or violence.

Keep Rolling On

Oh, I get that. I'm just always afraid that what I say will be taken the wrong way, especially in regards to gender issues.

Even though I know it's not a zero-sum game, I'm just so used to arguing with people who see it that way. Every time I bring this up I half-expect a response of, "Women are being raped and murdered and all you care about are men's precious feelings, sweet jiminy nothing's more fragile than the male ego," or something like that.

I have to remind myself that I'm in a friendly environment here.

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.

That's a given.

Gender issues are very personal, so I can see why some people have knee jerk reactions. And to be honest there is just a lot of shit falling out there.

Just yesterday I had a male acquaintance say that men catcalled because they felt pressured to chase after women.

Not quite. While there is the pressure to chase or acquire women, the closer issue is that men have been taught that women are sexual objects and they have some sort of entitlement over them. They have been taught that women are means of sexual value and their masculinity is tied to them getting all the points they can.

This is not a judgement against men, this is trying to understand where this problem is and addressing it at the root.

If men were not taught that women are things, but people, they would be encouraged to treat them with more respect as people. Women have been indoctrinated to be quite and submissive, and due to enough of them having abusive encounters with men, (Again, male entitlement and aggression because a real man doesn't take that shit), they keep their head down.

It's a vicious cycle.

So pointing out to men, "Hey, that's a person, not a thing. You don't need to treat her like a thing." and pointing out to women, "You don't deserve to be treated like that. You have the right to voice your opposition and demand better treatment" helps try and pick aside that problem from different points in the cycle.

Again, it doesn't mean that men are evil or that if you have engaged in this behavior to any degree that you are innately a bad person. You've been taught wrong and you need to correct yourself.

Now, regardless of gender, if it's been pointed out to you that something you're doing or not doing is contributing to a problem and you refuse to accept your responsibility in it, you're an asshole.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Having the lack of sexual conquests may make a man sexually frustrated but not any less of a man.

I feel a lot more accomplished as a man by doing my job and doing good than chasing tail.

Specially when I see other men turning into total dipshit douchebags pursuing women like it is the only priority in life. I have been shamed for not being a pick-up artist or not scoring on every party but the guys who did it were such dead beat idiots I pitted them more than I took any kind of offense.

Inter arma enim silent leges

Depends on what's being pointed out and who is pointing it out. Just because a person says to you (general) "You shouldn't be doing that because it's wrong", that doesn't mean they are right. Some people are biased, some exaggerate others flat-out lie. Or could simply be misinformed.

Regardless, you've got to examine their reasoning before you proceed to take any course of action. If the problematic behavior is, indeed, from your part, then by all means, you should accept responsibility and try to change yourself.

edited 1st Jul '15 9:41:04 AM by LogoP

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.

Again, that would be a given.

However if I say that males harassing females through online and in person instances are abusive and disrespectful to women and their male allies while encouraging toxic masuclinity and peer pressure in other men,

And your retort is, "Wellwomen catcall too!!"

You are part of the problem.

Yes, women are capable of catcalling and other forms of harassment. The prescence of that doesn't erase male harassment though and there is no reason why we can't explore both issues to solve both problems. But because the foundations of why these actions are occurring are different, we may have to have a conversation for each issue.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

That's not what he was saying; he was just saying that you shouldn't accept any and all criticism without applying a bit of critical thinking to it first. If someone tells you "you shouldn't hold doors for women, it's demeaning and disempowering", then rather than saying "oh, I didn't realize that! I'll never hold a door for a woman again!", you should say "wait, what? That's silly, I hold doors for men, too, it's just being polite".

He's not saying "but other people do bad stuff too, so the bad stuff I do is okay", he's saying "just because someone tells you it's bad doesn't make it bad, but it does mean you should think about it".

edited 1st Jul '15 10:52:59 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Honestly, I'd be more inclined to believe a man saying why men do something than a woman saying why men do it.

The theory I've heard that I put the most stock in is that women don't have a part in it at all, whether as objects or as people. It is about that pressure, as a form of social positioning. It's fairly similar to in-group jibing and other posturing that's first and foremost about who you are in the group (with the difference that that also affects the position of the target within the group), but also similar to aggressive behaviour towards others outside the group. It's very much part of the toxic masculinity about not showing yourself to be weak.

And if you want to solve the issue by teaching men that women are people rather than objects, you'd first have to teach them that catcalling is harassing, rather than complimenting.

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I wasn't talking specifically about catcalling.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.

EDIT: Wrong bloody thread.

edited 1st Jul '15 11:57:46 AM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges

We shouldn't have to state the obvious. This thread should be mature enough to realize that.

Anyway, I have noticed with gay marriage now being legal across the nation I have an influx of male soldiers coming in wanting to get their prenup reqs filled and signed off.

Hopefully we will be having more male homosexual families, couples, and marriages. Honestly I think this is a wonderfully liberating opportunity for men of all orientations and a great chance for guys to start having less superficial discussions and investigations on how to be a man and what roles men take.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc

I saw a social experiment involving men doing cat calling, where the woman would turn, reveal she had a camera, and interview them.

A few things I noticed were thus:

They claimed it was either a compliment "or they didn't mean anything by it"

What I found interesting, was their body language. The ones being interviewed kept turning to their buddies for back up, confirmation, and nods. There was a strong emphasis on it not being serious, but awkward answers otherwise.

Make of that what you will.

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I am in full agreement with everything you said here.

Male Success Is Women is the asshole twin brother to Female Success is Family.

On Cat-Calling

My understanding is that cat-calling is more about the other men with you than about the actual woman in question. She's just the ball - which is heavily dismissive and objectifying in its own right, mind you, and that shouldn't be understated - while the actual game is being played because every player on the field knows that his bros will think he's less of a man if he doesn't participate.

Toxic masculinity is a constant performance to impress other men who are only doing half of what they do as a performance to impress you, all of which involves stupid, harmful, dangerous, "manly" things.

edited 1st Jul '15 7:42:23 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Also cat-calling is one of those "tought things" men do because...hey, it dosent afect us, therefore it can be bad.

For a men sucess can achive in a number of things: being badass,having a good job,being good with women, and for last dosent look like a pussy(but this less sucess and more how not scrwing out) since many men will be avarage looks and jobs, being good with women or a least decidated a lot of time to her it is very important. hell one typical joke in sitcom is the clasical "me time vs her time" in which the overcontroling wife try to squezze everything to him

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"