Sexism

We have the Anti-Woman Laws in America thread, but this thread is going to be a more generalized sexism conversation. Things like glass ceilings, pay differences, cultural expectations, non-American experiences, etc.

I'll open with something that I read in another thread. One troper suggested that using the word "bitch" to describe a woman that was acting horribly was demeaning to women everywhere. Do others share this opinion?

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.

As I mentioned, it's generally best not to use gendered insults for pretty much the exact same reasons that it's best not to use racial insults like 'nigger', 'chink', 'Paki', and so on.

What's precedent ever done for us?

And as I mentioned, I was under the impression that "bitch" was merely the Distaff Counterpart of "bastard" (not the technical definition, obviously) as an insult in terms of potency.

edited 5th Jun '12 1:22:30 PM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Comparing someone to an animal tends to be used in the most demeaning way possible. Tends to be used more for women, considering that we're also called cows and heifers on occasion. (Insults vary region to region.)

Bastard, depending on region, can have affectionate connotations (Australia, among close friends who give each other shit), bitch nearly is always insulting.

edited 5th Jun '12 1:24:45 PM by AceofSpades

Started out that way, just like 'negro' started out as the technical term for black people. Generally, terms (especially insulting terms) applied to disadvantaged groups acquire a weight of their own, and in case you haven't noticed, English-speaking societies tend to be a wee bit sexist.

edited 5th Jun '12 1:25:00 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?

I have noticed. That's why I said what I did.

Sorry, you ninja'd me.

What's precedent ever done for us?

Well, not all women everywhere, but a lot of women in a lot of places.

Who'd be the exceptions?

I mean, a gendered insult disparages a gender just as a racial insult disparages a race, no?

edited 5th Jun '12 1:38:28 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?

I agree that gendered insults are bad.

"Can ye fathom the ocean, dark and deep, where the mighty waves and the grandeur sweep?"

The women who don't give a shit and don't see it as sexist I suppose. I myself don't really care about the insult.

I myself use bitch in an affectionate form. As I do many insults. My favorites being faggot, whore, slut, and bitch. That's just me though and I use them this way with select people only. Like my girlfriend who is occasionally known only by a series of insults.

The form of sexism I myself am most concerned with at the moment is the lack of official acceptance and representation of nuns in Theravada. As well as the treatment of Mae Ji. There's a rather large disparity in just how devoted a female can be officially in Theravada. Even in Mahayana schools with nuns there are issues in the case of all nuns being of lower rank than monks.

My concern with this issue and my focus on it stems from my wanting to become a nun at least for a time and my ability to practice my religion as wholly and strictly as I desire.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

@laculus, What is a Paki?

I'd rather have it where there are no insults, but I don't see that coming any time soon. And, as anyone who's been watching the white privilege thread knows that there are a thousand and one ways to justify anything, even if you're called out on it.

In my experience, it always varies between people. The girl who would be my first girlfriend pounded on my arm for half an hour when I said I wouldn't hit a girl.

...don't matter as much as you think they do!

If you're female, and your subordinates at work hate you because you act "like a bitch"*

, you've been done real harm by the term "bitch" whether or not you mind being called one.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

I don't think either one way or another about the impact of them largely due to not caring, Humor. Hence the "I suppose". My not caring about the term being used towards me in particular doesn't mean I don't believe it doesn't have impact. Nor does it imply what I think about the level of impact of either group.

Again my concern sexism wise is almost entirely spent towards my religion and my ability to become a nun. Just ain't Dhamma to restrict it to one sex and then treat what roles the females can get like shit. Insults, people hating me, and lower pay rates are secondary concerns to me.

edited 5th Jun '12 3:26:07 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

It just happens to be a gendered insult. People (typically) use "bitch" as an insult when the target is female, "son of a bitch" when the target is male. It's not gender-neutral, but to say it's "demeaning to women everywhere" is pushing it.

I think being gender-neutral is on some level self-defeating, as it raises the question as to how the sexes got so different without them tracing back to some other set of differences.

Uh, no, it doesn't necessarily mean that.

For one thing, a woman can be called a bitch for reasons having nothing to do with assertiveness or authority and everything to do with dishonesty, manipulativeness, etc...

For another, it's often used for the complete opposite, submissiveness. "Each one of them was his little bitch" etc...

edited 5th Jun '12 3:34:05 PM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

Bitch can and is used towards males as well without the "son of" portion. Typically towards homosexual men, anyone deemed "feminine", someone who is complaining about a matter deemed unimportant (or complaining at all), or someone who doesn't want to go through with something due to worry or fear.

This usage I am assuming is used in arguments that declare it demeaning to women. At least I feel it should given on what it can imply.

edited 5th Jun '12 3:33:41 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Isn't being offensive the entire point of using insults and profanity?

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

So a tomboyish girl who labels an effeminate guy bitchy is insulting... herself?

To be fair, it's a matter of who you offend and why you offend them.

edited 5th Jun '12 3:36:00 PM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

@laculus, What is a Paki?

Short for Pakistani - it's a derogatory term for Central/South Asian folks in the UK. Not the sort of thing you want to use unless (a) you want your brains smeared across the pavement by irate Asian folks, or (b) you're a member of the BNP who makes a hobby out of smearing Asian folks' brains across the pavement.

What's precedent ever done for us?

Possibly yes. I'm not the one making the argument, due to not being concerned with the issue, but after some brief (and I mean like a minute) thought a line of logic can be used in disfavor of the term via "Bitch towards submissive or feminine males which insults feminine traits which insults women".

It would make sense to me personally to include such a defense in some manner in your long and drawn out case against the term and other gendered insults.

DG: Yes indeed that is the point typically. Unless we count using the words for the sake of poetry or affectionate nicknames and such.

edited 5th Jun '12 3:38:05 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

As I've pointed out in other threads (I forget which) one may look down on feminine traits for reasons other than that they're feminine, and two people might not even agree on which traits even are feminine anyway. Saying "bitch" could just be an effect of the various connotations the word has gained, rather than a sign of Boomerang Bigotry.

EDITED IN: That said, given just the two options, I'd rather apply see the taboo against the b-word applied consistently than have another case of N-Word Privileges. Otherwise, I'd rather the taboo against the word be lowered altogether. Bitch has a couple meanings that are gender-specific, but that isn't "demeaning to women everywhere" anymore than making "Ms." or "Mrs." gender-specific.

edited 5th Jun '12 3:46:17 PM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

Indeed they can. That doesn't change that I think such an inclusion of a point, with mention of how there are other reasons to dislike them, would make sense.

I will leave it to the people who care about the harm the term does to make the argument though. I have canonical texts, pages upon pages of analysis, traditional views built upon those two things, traditional views built upon the native culture, and so on to dig through. As well as research into how I can become a Theravada rebel nun of doom myself for a time. Joining the ranks of the Dhammananda and that white lady whose name I sadly forgot but is in Pali because those are things you get when you are ordained.

THIS SHIT JUST AIN'T ACCEPTABLE. SPECIALLY THE MAE JI THING.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Reasons are hard to elaborate on in the concise environment of the middle school hallway. And sometimes there really is no good reason, but that doesn't necessarily mean sexism is the reason.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

N Word privileges arise out of a group taking an insult meant to demean them and turning it into a sign of strength or solidarity. At that point, whether or not it's an insult becomes incredibly context specific.

I mean, in the most basic situations you'll let your friends call you stupid and probably insult them back, but someone outside your group doesn't have that privilege because they don't know you and likely actually mean it as an insult instead of friendly jibing. "Bitch is likely to develop those kind of n word privileges if it hasn't already, because of the specific context in which it is used.

You're not going to get the equality of language you desire when people still use it as a way to demean others. And bitch and other words are used plenty to demean women.

You argue far too hard that certain things aren't sexist, I think.

edited 5th Jun '12 3:52:46 PM by AceofSpades

Indeed. You speak differently depending on whether you're talking to friends or strangers, right? Picking what insults to use is part of that.

What's precedent ever done for us?