Needs Help: A Man Is Not A Virgin

A lot of examples for this trope are aversions. This is probably a Discredited Trope now but still it's kinda weird that the example section mainly consists of examples that aren't even examples of this trope.

edited 30th May '12 7:00:30 PM by captainpat

Delete all the aversions. They have no place in the article.

Or we can talk about it first.

This is one of those where the aversions are more notable than the straight examples. You'll rarely even notice straight examples, unless its a guy surrounded by a half dozen virgin women and the only reason he's not a virgin is because he's male. I agree something needs to be done, but "cut all the aversions and call it a day" isn't it.

I don't think there's a point to aversions unless it's somehow discussed or otherwise brought up in-story. Just a man who's a virgin (especially if it's a teenager) doesn't make for an interesting example, much less an actual trope. If it's justified it belongs even less.

edited 30th May '12 10:25:53 PM by Feather7603

This trope is mostly discussed not invoked. :D I have an example to add soon.

There's no point in listing men who are virgins, and there's no point in listing men who are not virgins.

This trope is about the attitude that a man is not a virgin. So: some guy admits being a virgin, and he's mocked as less than masculine. Or: a guy pursues losing his virginity to prove himself.

If people express this attitude, that's not discussing the trope - that is the trope. Discussing the trope would one step further removed("Do you ever notice how virgin guys are considered totally worthless?")

That's a good point. It's much like the appearance tropes, where just having the appearance isn't enough, they have to fit the associated symbolism as well.

Fully agree.

Sounds a lot better that this trope's current definition.

edited 2nd Jun '12 7:04:49 AM by captainpat

So is it more that A Virgin Is Not A Man?

Yes, that virgin girls are considered sweet but no one wants a virgin guy (from Seiho Boys High School) They are considered rejects for not 'getting some'. The attitude is also that a real man is pushy about 'getting some' and doesn't wait until he's 'ready'.

Which would mean that a lot of the so-called aversions are in fact being played straight, for example the Doctor Who example where the unspecified devil analogue is taunting people with their dark sides, and Toby's is that he's a virgin.

Clock is set.

That is pretty much the entire trope summed up in one sentence.

I think we should rewrite the description to make it more clear that it is about male virginity being present as something negative and cut all examples that merely mention the virginal status of a male character, without any judgment being made in-universe. There are far to many examples that simply lists virginal characters and even some that just mention that a given character had no sex at all on screen.

edited 2nd Jul '12 4:58:48 AM by eX

I think part of the confusion is that it gets read as "males don't get referred to as virgins"... "Man" is at tricky word and clarifying that could help.

There are a lot of works out there with male characters that are of age and virgins but the thing is, they're coded as boys or awkward men, not Real Men. (Mostly. Curiously enough, the most Real Man like adult male virgins I can think of come from BL or yaoi...)

"Man" here is not to be read as in the sex of an individual but as the social status of a Real Man that has its standards (compare to Proper Lady... Ugh I think we have yet another missed Big Trope here... My laptop just broke but I'll look at this in a couple of days...) — think "make a man out of you" or "you call yourself a man?"

The trope here should be read more like "a sexually inexperienced man is not a Real Man"...

So how about a subtle rename to A Real Man Is Not A Virgin?

I like it.

Sounds like what it should be

Absolutely. Then we need to fix out most of those aversions which are actually playing it straight.

Yeah, that should deter a lot of the misuse.

Expired clock and stale again. Locking.