I for one will fight on the side of the Bookisms

Hmm. Maybe I should reconsider some of my views on the topic.

Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com

I think the worst thing about "Bob seethed" is that it's vague. What does it sound like when someone "seethes" something?

Is Bob raising his voice? Is he speaking slowly and carefully? Is he muttering to himself? I don't know. "Bob seethed" doesn't provide that information.

I've got to echo the people who've already pointed out things like "shouted," "muttered," "whispered," and so on add information that would otherwise be difficult to convey.

Even stuff like "snapped back," adds information that wasn't present in "she said," and while "he sneered," includes information that *could* be conveyed elsewhere, I don't know why it would *need* to be conveyed elsewhere.

Sure you could try to get across the idea that someone muttered by describing her slouched shoulders and downcast eyes... as long as no one in your story ever says anything at odds with their posture. I have personally cast my eyes down, then shouted. It happens.

As for the people who become angry, who's suspension of disbelief is broken, if you see something like "she choked between sobs," or "her voice rose as she continued," I think you just need to take a step back, and try to enjoy the story without worrying whether or not the writer shares your ideas about dialogue tags. The author is stuck in the situation of needing to describe the characters actions using words. Abnormal or unexpected voice modulation is part of the character's actions, and I'm at a loss as to why you feel the author should not be allowed to describe it.

'Tom Swifty' means things like 'he said angrily' or 'he said quickly', right?

I don't agree that those are all bad either. Some of them sound unnatural, some are just a natural extension of the dialogue. I use them a lot.

If we keep on extending our list of 'things that one Must Not Do in dialogue tags', soon we're going to be restricted to not describing the character's voice characteristics at all apart from "John was furious' and 'Mary clenched her fists'. I don't see how that would make my writing any better.

Be not afraid...

Aren't Tom Swifty's puns?

Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com

Let's consult the article.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."

In that case, Night @ post 99 is using it wrong...

I have heard it used to describe that sort of dialogue tag even without a pun.

Be not afraid...

Yeesh. Look, rather than try to make the same points over and over again, I'll just state the following:

One one side, you have the vast majority of published writers, the vast majority of the publishing industry, the vast majority of published guides to writing, and the vast history of Western literature.

On the other side, you have a bunch of unpublished writers and people on the Internet who write fanfiction.

Yeah, I understand that everyone wants to defend their writing, but this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that so many writers don't actually want to improve.

There's a good reason why I wrote this article.

My stance in terms of reading.

My stance in terms of writing.

Nobody actually pitches a fit over one single use of "quipped", though. And I'm sure that even a hard-liner like Elmore Leonard has gone against his rules of writing and tossed in an adverb or two.

I almost paraphrased from this post when I was writing that article.

We as a whole can get passionative over these kinds of things.

edited 31st May '12 5:29:41 PM by chihuahua0

But... er, that was a joke?

There's this whole weird trend of black-or-white thinking on this subject that, best as I can tell, goes something like this:

1) Guy 1 says "using words other than 'said' is bad writing!"

2) Guy 2 takes that to mean "Guy 1 thinks that any writer in the history of literature that has ever used any word other than 'said' is an awful writer and everything they write is garbage and anyone who agrees with them is garbage"

3) Guy 2 infers from that that "I don't agree with that, so he's wrong and so my only option is to freely use words other than 'said' without thinking that they are generally a poor method of writing at all! "

That's not how things work in the real world. No one is making a personal attack when they say that using a word other than "said" is bad writing, because they've likely made the same mistake themselves over and over again. And I'm quite sure that whoever that was you linked to does not want to actually shoot people who use the word "quipped", and in fact probably doesn't even slam a book shut in a rage and refuse to read any further the first time he comes across a word like that.

edited 31st May '12 6:33:55 PM by jackpollock

It's not correct, perhaps, but it got the point across to most of the audience. I'm fairly sure that particular construction has no name by which it is recognized, so I made one up.

Nous restons ici.

What exactly is the source for the idea that dialogue tags other than said are bad writing? Because I'm seeing a lot of claims that no professional/published writer uses tags other than "said" alongside a lot of complaints that that professional/published writers don't seem to be aware of this.

Shortly after I read this thread yesterday, an acquaintance handed me an Honor Harrington novel and suggested I read it. I flipped through the first couple of pages, scanning the dialogue, and I couldn't find an unembellished "he said" or "she said".

Later than night my wife decided to listen to a chapter of "Storm Front" and I listened for and waited for the first dialog tag. It was this gem:

I spat words at him, "No. You don't want to make an enemy of me..."

I spat words at him

Now, I don't know much about David Weber, but I know that "Storm Front" was Jim Butcher's first novel, so this isn't a famous author slipping whatever he wants through because he was famous, and also that he was heavily invested in writing classes at the time and deliberately trying not to defy convention in his first novel.

I'm sure there are circles in which both David Weber and Jim Butcher are considered low-brow, but they are both certainly professional and published authors.

It's hard to get things objectively right or wrong when debating matters of style, but if you're making the claim that published/professional writers don't use alternate or embellished dialogue tags, you are objectively wrong.

Butcher was deliberately trying to write the dumbest, most formulaic book possible when he came up with Storm Front, and was rather amused when it ended up being a runaway success. Holding it up as an example of good writing rather misses the point.

edited 1st Jun '12 9:38:11 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?

"Said bookisms" are a topic that is often debated. Try Googling it. *

It's not being used as an example of good writing, it's being used as an example of published and popular writing. I think it's fine to debate definitions of 'good' and 'bad' that go beyond mere popular appeal but I think if you do that you should make it clear that's what you're doing and what your position is.

Yeah it's on my first page too. And I read it and pretty much agree.

edited 1st Jun '12 9:56:08 AM by Kesteven

gloamingbrood.tumblr.com MSPA: The Superpower Lottery

Thank you, Kesteven.

To complain that Storm Front is a terrible and formulaic novel is missing the point.

Saying Butcher wrote a deliberately bad novel is mischaracterizing his comments about its process. Without derailing overmuch, he wrote a deliberately typical novel. As in Butcher was deliberately throwing everything that would be normal and acceptable to publishers into the mix that he could.

Apparently that included: I spat words at him, "..."

...and he was taking classes on how to write and how to get published at the time, so it's not like he was taking a wild guess.

...and it got published.

Personally I don't think Storm Front would be noteworthy if it hadn't been followed by better novels, but the fact that Butcher was deliberately trying not to rock the boat makes it a stronger example, if anything.

I got curious and started counting up the dialogue tags I used in an excerpt of my writing.

Asked, said, pointed out and replied were the ones I used the most. Said, however, was never just said. I either added an adverb to it or an action.

A few of the dialogue tags I used once seem questionable to me now. Reassured, for instance, seems redundant. Screeched seems narm worthy.

Overall though I have variety in my tags but I think they're reasonable ones? I'll keep it in mind for the future though and try to keep the more questionable ones to a minimum or nonexistent.

I'd try to take a survey of some published work in the genre you're working in before making too much of an effort to change anything on your end. I'm seeing a lot of bold claims from the anti-bookism side that their way is more professional, correct, and is favored by publishers, but it doesn't seem to be in evidence.

I'll have to browse through some young adult speculative fiction then.

From my experience, even the best-sellers (Harry Potter, Divergent)*

have a few every fify pages or so, although I need to check.

Really, the only certainty is that too many said bookisms in succession is a bad thing. As in, "multiple per page" succession.

edited 4th Jun '12 10:39:30 AM by chihuahua0

I think what we're seeing here is that people have a habit of responding to excessive use of something by saying it should be avoided altogether — over-reaction — and then combined with peoples' love of going round telling others they're Doing It Wrong, regardless of how subjective a judgment that really is.

A brighter future for a darker age.

Another day at Writer's Block, then.

Read my stories!

Beyond just here, though. You're Doing It Wrong is one of the favorite sports of online writing discussion places, largely because writers are insecure fucks who are very susceptible to being victims of it and perpetrators of it.

A brighter future for a darker age.

Really, the only certainty is that too many said bookisms in succession is a bad thing. As in, "multiple per page" succession.

We definitely can't say that for certain. I might have gotten a weird cross section or there might be certain genres where bookisms are strongly frowned upon or something, but opinions are divided and people with no particular love for "said" definitely get published.

I think what we're seeing here is that people have a habit of responding to excessive use of something by saying it should be avoided altogether — over-reaction —

That's probably true. Borrowing from a friend's reaction to this...

...I don't remember where exactly, but at some point in my education, probably fairly early on, I was taught to avoid repetition like the plague, including repetition of the word "said." I wasn't educated by private tutors or anything, so I'm probably not alone in that.

This seems to have resulted in an inappropriate fear of the word "said" in a lot of amateur authors. (you know, people drawing on no formal education aside from a poorly-remembered junior high English class)

"Said," is a pretty basic, integral word. If you never use it things get awkward, and you get writing where characters are excessively seething, pontificating, murmuring, quipping and so on. As the author reaches for more and more replacements for "said." you get words that don't really mean anything, obscure words that jar the reader out of the story, and characters shouting or whispering at inappropriate times.

That's bad, yes.

But now the pendulum seems to have swung in the opposite direction, and we're looking at a bunch of writers who are afraid to say so if their characters shout, whisper, or cry.

In the middle, I'd definitely recommend using "said" when characters are speaking plainly, and avoiding tags like "seethed" or "quipped" which can distract readers with their unclear meanings, but I'd stop short of simply refusing to describe how a character is speaking.

Going a step further, if every set of quotes in a conversation is associated with a "he said," a "she said," or some embellished replacement, you might want to look into dropping some of the tags altogether. If you can do it gracefully, you avoid excessive repetition of the word "said" without needing to dig up an awkward replacement for it.

edited 4th Jun '12 12:32:21 PM by Paul3