ReHistory: Warwalker: The Mechoning: The Conversation

Again I'm not like... saying it should be undone or anything. Was just jarring. You could have mentioned in in two sentences (or less!) that we traveled that distance or whatnot.

I had already mentioned the location, and he used the word "soon" as the transition, so I guess it might just be that all the info is scattered across a couple different posts in this thread and the main one.

I think you can probably blame me for setting it up that way. If you were actually on a battlefield, then your characters would all have roughly the same detection area, and I'd just make a post in the RP instead. In this case, though, I wasn't completely sure who would detect it first (Do the light mechs in the V pattern run ahead and catch it? Does Aleida's drone find it? That sort of thing.) so I left it up to whoever wanted to find it.

But that's okay, now it should be fine.... oh, except that after this, your characters are all going to be a ways off from the objective and have to keep walking... ughhh. But no, no, it'll be fine, I have it figured out. I hope.

edited 9th Jun '12 1:09:32 PM by nman

Sometime I might have to draw up a control layout for the Draak.

Hi all Well, this rpg sounds cool. I already have alternate USSR history floating in my head:

October revolution went mostly like in our timeline, but due to technology leap in 1915, Civil war played differently for Bolsheviks. Mainly, during the first period of civil war (1917-1918) most progressive technology(like tanks) ended in the hands of Whites, resulted in large scale defeats for Bolsheviks in second period of war (1918-1919), but the day was saved by The Black Army who used looted german tanks and new weaponry; Black Guards is formed (1920); War dragged on til 1923, ending with collapse of White movement;

Eastern parts of Siberia became part of Imperial Japan (as part of Russo-Japanese peace treaty); Free Territories was never abolished and gained autonomy under Makhno ; Black Army was kept alongside the Red Army;

Stalin never took over(he died in civil war), instead Trotskiy ended up in charge of bigger part of USSR, while Makhno governed South-Eastern Ukraine; That means no "Socialism in One Country", no purges of army high command and no One party rule (Goverment is divided by bolsheviks(majority) and Anarchists(Second Large),with some little amount of other parties) Five Year Plan started running in 1926; In 1931 second Five Year Plan to industrialize USSR took place but never finished due to German invasion(1935; Because old civil war command was mostly intact, USSR forces performed much better than in our timeline; Also they were better equiped due to EGE and TELM international weapon trading; Despite of technological advantage of the third Reich, reaction of USSR was fast and Scorched earth strategy was used; Brutal warfare and ferocious battles took place in Ukraine and European part of Russia; During 1935-1936 most of Black Army was destroyed; On its ashes rised Ukrainian Liberating Front(ULF), whose partisant movement was one of the decisive factors in the war; Tide of war was turned at the Battle of Moscow(1937); From now on Germany was slowly losing battle after battle culminating in Battle of Berlin(1940); Then Germany was divided between USSR and its Western Allies; In 1941 Black Army is reformed on base of ULF; Autonomous Free Regions were reformed under the name South-East Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic;

So, we have USSR without Stalin(-5 to population, +5 leadership, -5 to military), but with Trotskiy (-5 leadership,+3 military), Anarchists(+50% crazy awesome), more liberal and pre-WW 2 army Command. Kinda cool

It's certainly interesting, and I would have never thought of most of that. Japan possessing parts of Siberia would help to explain their absence in WWII, as well. Anyone else got something to say?

Oh, and for those of you here who are actually in the game - before I can make anything happen, I want to make sure I know how your characters are moving, and what sort of positions they'd be in by the time someone gets to the tarped areas. Anyone running ahead? Sticking together? I know Shane said he would lag behind the light guys, who I'm assuming are the three mechs in the V pattern, but are Aleida and Hans with Shane as well?

edited 11th Jun '12 5:52:27 PM by nman

Hmm...a chance to try to use something that vanished from Mechwarrior due to Lawyers in a different format.

Damn this is tempting...

It's an interesting idea that I've seen get some milage before but I feel like I should play devil's advocate here;

I don't think that a nation as large as Russia could industrialize that quickly without serious consequences. Infact that's why the Russian and Chinese five year plans were so devastating, if anything it would further the technological gap between developed and developing nation that made Russia seem backward and allowed the select few their hands on the limited industry and technology control the rest in such a centralized way. Fast industrialization is an acceptable break and I should probably leave it since it has to do with the premise but it might serve as further fuel for a revolution if they are slow to modernize. On the other hand, a huge technological boost like what was described, if we're giving it to Russia, would probably end pretty favourably for the Tsar since it would let them help the Russian people somewhat better and serious reforms would really have made them better in the peasants eyes. I dunno, I think it'd be interesting to see the Russian Empire unbroken or the White Russians triumphant as well and it might be worth a look at.

There's also the double question of whether Trotsky would have actually been any better authoritarianism wise and further if he wasn't, would letting Russia splinter into cells [if he did with with the Ukranians, he'd certainly have granted other ethnic groups a lot more autonomy if not fully indepedance in a loose league] have let the Germans just steam roll them.

I'm cool with this verse being a bit lighter and softer and maybe saying that Stalin/Trotsky filing the serial numbers off of Tesla/Edison technology sped things up and let them avoid worse crimes but I don't know if an anti-authoritarian USSR is feasible historically or necessarily adds much to the game, unless we're really focusing on politics and revolution, it seems to add a lot of extra stuff and questions.

edited 11th Jun '12 10:55:27 PM by Fauxlosophe

It especially begs all sorts of questions as to how this would change the nation's relation towards other nations, and vice versa.

If Russia would have a different kind of government in WWII, then their involvement in it would probably be different as well. And the Cold War? Even bigger changes; the Cold War went the way it did specifically because of the kind of government the USSR had and the relation this made it have with the USA, since the Cold War was less of a real war and more of a diplomatic dick-waving contest agenda. Changing it one way or another could lead to either the Cold War never happening or having it end in nuclear armageddon.

And since the RP is happening during the Cold War, it's kind of specifically pertinent to the setting.

edited 11th Jun '12 11:05:49 PM by FirockFinion

Yeah, my thinking is whether a democratic USSR even be able to kick off a Cold War? The balance would shift from a clear sort of East vs. West with the borders we all know to a completely different map and no Warsaw pact but rather turn the entire focus away from these Powerblocks and towards internal Politics, since this version of the Soviet Union would probably offer more support to Western European Communist parties [while the historic one let them shrivel and die since it couldn't control them] while allowing democratic elections in the East. Or else it might isolate itself in to irrelevance but focusing on internal development. It'd be a world power but probably less scary that we make China out to be. All in all not the best Cold War environment.

It's pertinent definitely, it's more a matter that it seems to change the focus on the game from one with simple political power blocks to one where either the USSR is crippled, killing the cold war feel or it's all about politics and elections since Europe would suddenly be up for grabs between leftists and conservatives, which is interesting but I feel we'd be straying from the premise and including a few too many space fleas. I'm not really sure if either of those 'add' to the game persay or just make it more complex and I'm a bit wary about treating Tesla/Edison as a magical cure all for history to let us diverge on everything.

edited 11th Jun '12 11:38:01 PM by Fauxlosophe

On the opposite side, a more neighbor-friendly USSR, under Trotskyism, may have never led to the Sino-russian split, China and Russia would be much closer allies. A more neighbor-friendly China and Russia probably wouldn't have instigated the Korean or Vietnam War (a more live-and-let-live attitude? Only include those willingly converting to socialism?) That would solve some of our weak power-bloc issues, lumping Russia and China together under one banner (Or just saying Warsaw Pact is pretty much equal-but-opposite NATO, and China is included)

I do agree on the whole 'Lets not make Tesla/Edison scapegoats for all our altered history' though. Again I'd like to assume unless specifically noted otherwise we're playing this parallel the real world.

edited 12th Jun '12 1:54:46 AM by SOCR

Should anything have happened in China as a result of Uncle Joe not being around?

edited 12th Jun '12 2:12:09 AM by Colonial1.1

Yeah the fast industrialization part was a bit of an asspull but hey, we have mecha, African - Japan - Latin America superpowers and the whole Tesla-Eddison arm race so I thought I could get away with this As for advantage for Tsar - monarchists DID have an advantage but I think it was like that: Russo-Japanese War did not end in 1905; instead it was slowly dragged on for nearly 12 years with both sides in a stalemate; finally in 1917 revolution hit Russia and soon civil war started; using unrest Empire was able to seize upperhand and invaded Siberia on land; so when actual fighting between Revolutioneries and Whites took place Whites were forsed to fight for two fronts - hence why they failed to crush revolution; Bolsheviks losses still were heavy as they were fighting tanks with peasants;

Something like that; more brainstorming needed

well considering Japan won Tsushima Bay because superior technology, if that playing field was level Russia wouldn't have lost their navy, that would make sense.

edited 12th Jun '12 1:15:17 PM by SOCR

Hmm...

Did the Treaty of Versailles (or the equivalent) contain the same harshness in this setting as it did in RL history? Was there a Weimar Republic?

@Rgriff: My main thing is just that it looks like a bit of an idealogy wank since there isn't really a reason why it should have gone like this even if we could justify the shift with changes, it's not the premise after all and requires a lot of additional changes. I think the simplest explaination is that Lenin was convinced by Trotsky to negociate with the Menshevik faction and they managed to wrestle Lenin into keeping to his promise of a Union of Soviets. This keeps the enemies to the Tsarists and averts the White vs. Red civil war. The Anarchists are a bit harder. Though it's quite possible that in this version of history seeing a less centralized and totalitarian Soviet Union they accepted integration provided that the autonomy of regions electing Anarchist representatives would be respected. It's just a lot of ifs and alterations to justify it.

I think this would really change the face of things though, as there were a lot more Western European Communes in the wake of the Soviet Union than actual Eastern Support. In the long run as SOCR implied, the map would look radically different. No Warsaw Pact but their eyes might turn East and forgien revolutions would have gotten much more attention. Maybe Spain would still be Communist instead of Fascist. Communists would certainly be a bigger powerblock in Western Nations without the menace of the Iron Curtain over Europe.

@SOCR: To my knowledge, The Soviet Union and even North Vietnam actually kept pretty far out of the Vietnam war thing for most of the early stages. Probably for fear of an actual US invasion. The Charlies were mostly homegrown, direct USSR support was slow coming while Trotsky was a well known internationalist, he'd likely have given them and the North Koreans more funding if anything. Though they might have ended up with friendlier more democratic regimes at the end of it.

With him at the helm, there's actually a much more significant chance that the Republican Spainish would have beaten Franco.

@Col: I don't see why there wouldn't be. Harshness would probably be even more necessary to ensure that the Germans didn't get a bunch of awesome Tesla/Edison tech and instead were stuck with the bitterness of the last war.

edited 12th Jun '12 6:22:14 PM by Fauxlosophe

I'd prefer keeping things closer to the real USSR myself, just wanted to see if you guys liked what he wrote. At the very least, though, as long as it's a form of communism where Red Scare and Dirty Communists can come into play, I'll be happy with whatever you all think is best.

Also, tech-wise, I'm imagining that Russia tends to have slow, hunkering, sturdy, monstrous objects made out of solid steel, so if we're worried with the tech, we could say that while the Russians might not have made the same amazing weapons the West had, they at least had the ability to churn out a lot of (our) WWII era tech.

And yes, there would have had to have been a Treaty of Versailles-like situation. It's still an early enough year where most of the divergences could still be considered technological instead of political.

edited 12th Jun '12 6:26:31 PM by nman

...How Ironic.

I'm designing a Russian Style mech...well somewhat. Its basicly a giant torso on a set of legs with Guns bolted to the outside and in what might be considered the shoulders.

It looks ugly and heavy...typical Russian

I don't know where else to put it, so here it is: These are some vehicles I came up with, which would have been produced before and during World War II. You're not guaranteed to encounter all of these (or even any of these) during the first mission, so don't worry about being swarmed. I just figured this would be a good list of what you could expect "outdated" vehicles to be like. Anyone notice any stupidity on my part?

• Luftpanzer: Looks and feels a bit like the Panzer IV from our universe, but with added jet components that give it a faster top speed and some limited jump capabilities. Has a 75mm tank gun (30 rounds per minute, 80 round capacity) and a pair of tri-barreled 7.92mm machineguns (1500 rounds per minute per barrel, 5000 rounds held). And since this alternate universe has some pretty badass metallurgy and engineering, they got the weight down to 16 tons, with a top speed of 90 miles per hour.

• Tiger: Conveniently, the Germans made a tank with nearly the same name and specifications as the Tiger II heavy tank from our universe (without the crippling mechanical problems). Has an 88mm main gun (20 rounds per minute, 100 round capacity) and a pair of tri-barreled 7.92mm machineguns (2100 rounds per minute (700 per barrel), 6000 total rounds held). Once again, the badass alternate universe factor means it's about 45 tons and goes up to 40 miles per hour.

• Junkers Luftmaschine: A helicopter. You wouldn't be far off assuming this is a lot like an Iroquois. They carry up to eight passengers, flare countermeasures, a dozen 70mm rockets, and can have door gunners with 30mm guns and 40mm grenade launchers.

• de Havilland Bumblebee: A mostly-wood bomber similar to the de Havilland Mosquito that doesn't show up on long-range radar.*
  the wood's been carbon-impregnated and has iron ball paint
  Has four 20mm cannons (750 rounds per minute, 3000 rounds carried), and can carry cool stuff in its bay. Travels up to 400 miles per hour.

• Tesla Generation I Mobile Upright Railgun Platform, "Murphy": Looks like an ATST from Star Wars, but with four legs. Has a pair of 7.62mm machineguns on the sides and one on the bottom of the "box", (2000 rpm each, 5000 total round capacity) hanging below, but also has a tri-barreled railgun turret on the top (1 kilogram projectiles at 3000m/s, 24 rounds per minute, 400 rounds carried). Stands 12 feet tall and weighs seven tons, with a max speed of 35 miles per hour.

• Edison Mark III All-Terrain Armored Battle Vehicle, "Attaboy": Almost like an M46 Patton, but with six legs instead of treads, suspending the tank seven feet over the ground. Armed primarily with a 90 mm tank gun (30 rounds per minute, 100 carried), dual 7.62 mm machine guns (800 rounds per minute, 6000 rounds carried), and a pair of older prototype versions of the shockwave generator your mechs can carry. 50 tons with a top speed of thirty miles per hour.

edited 13th Jun '12 7:23:22 AM by nman

With firing rates like 20-30 rounds per minute on those main guns, I assume these tanks have auto-loaders.

Only a couple issues I see: The Luft Panzer jumping ability would be difficult but not impossible for a vehicle with no legs to brace the impact. It would instead have to rely on those same jets to keep it stable in the air and make sure it doesn't touch down too hard. Especially since tanks are about the least aerodynamic things imaginable.

Now this I'm not 100% positive on, but I'm pretty sure radar does not work that way. Specifically, I don't think it gives a damn whether your craft is made of metal or wood; it takes different tricks to fool radar. Specifically, special radar-absorbing materials, usually applied on as the outer layer on crafts meant to beat radar. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_absorbing_material

Plus, building a bomber/cargo plane out of wood is a great way to ensure it can't hold that much weight without falling apart, thus defeating the purpose. EDIT: After looking up the real-life counterpart, I see now how that works. I still don't know if I'd rely on it to hold, say, mechs or tanks though.

edited 12th Jun '12 8:29:14 PM by FirockFinion

Yes, I don't expect them to be hand-loaded.

For the tanks, I did expect the same jets that cause them to jump to also help cushion the impact (plus a bitchin' suspension), much like how the jump jets on the mechs work.

The plane, I based it almost entirely off of the de Havilland Mosquito. It's like 10% faster (I wanted a nice, round, number), but aside from that, it's almost the same as the Real Life version. As for the radar stuff, I just based it off of what I read about that old Soviet plane. If that doesn't jive, it could be explained that it has carbon added to the wood, or that it's simply carrying something similar to the stealth system on the mechs that lets it mask its echo.

Also, if any of you have ideas for Serial Numbers Filed Off versions of WWII vehicles, or early Tesla/Edison tech, feel free to suggest them.

Question. If a mech has something like a typical russian smoothbore gun, can it fire the missiles that the russian guns could fire that they developed in the 1980s for the 1960 T-64.

Cause I noticed that you don't have something like 105mm guns or anything.

Ah, was the idea based off this part?

Well, I'd think that radar strength of a night fighter would probably be a bit weaker than anything with long-range radar. Plus the minimal radar echo of that little plane would also be attributed to its small size and shape; the same trick of simply making something out of wood wouldn't work with something as big and bulky as a bomber/cargo plane. So yeah, saying it has a stealth system like the light mechs can have or an iron ball paint job would work.

As for suggestions of vehicles? Well, it'd be awesome to have something based off the P-51 mustang. And for Tesla/Edison tech, all I will say is that one or both of them has to have made a three-legged walker at some point. 'Cause I mean, come on man, it's a three-legged walker; it's as impractical as it is awesome.

edited 12th Jun '12 9:01:01 PM by FirockFinion

He has "Artillery" which I figure is a catch-all for whatever field howitzer or long range weapon you want. Also, the big railguns are pretty effective high power cannons.

Mechs can only equip the weapons listed in the signup thread. However, if you're looking for something close to a 105mm gun, the regular railgun is more-or-less is a heavy direct-fire artillery weapon, and the mortar*

Shazam! It's no longer made of wood. It's made of wood that's been carbon-impregnated and has iron ball paint. And if you have any ideas for armaments, that would be great too, since I'm bound to just keep on throwing out 7mm secondaries and 20mm/30mm/75mm/90mm primaries if I'm left unchecked.

I had to add more arrows because of that ninja!

edited 12th Jun '12 9:14:30 PM by nman

@Reven's question: I think he means something that could alternate between conventional ammo and missiles. At least, if I read his post right anyway.

Oh, oh! I just got an awesome idea for some Tesla/Edison tech. It's another from the Supreme Commander series I didn't remember 'till now: Amphibious ships. In the water they'd seem like typical ships but when they pull up to land they can unfold large spider-like legs from the hull and lumber around on land. (Typically it would be six of them in the Supreme Commander games.)

Of course, in the games it's puntastically called LEGS

this.