Batman General Discussion

Another good issue of Detective Comics, though I think I had more problems with this one than the previous three combined. Kate and Tim are still the stars of this book right now and I love how complex their commander-lieutenant relationship is. The additional info on the Colony completely solidifies it in my mind, and I have zero problem accepting that they were already being formed back during the events of Batwoman: Elegy. I'm still kind of amazed at how well it all fits. I'm also itching to see the team beat some Colony ass next issue. With all the glimpses of everyone doing something awesome, there better be a great payoff; I'll be so pissed if they get immediately taken out without a real good reason.

edited 2nd Aug '16 11:04:36 AM by caivu

Read Batgirl 1 I appreciated Barbra speaking the Japanese language through pink text, and I hope to see more of Fruit Bat. It actually felt very simple until Sailor Clown showed up. :P

from Detective Comics, i really loved the scene with how much junk Bruce keeps in his utility belt. and Steph's interactions with Tim and Cass are delightful

idk storywise i love the tunnel system it just seems really useful

Love her or hate her, James Tynion confirmed on Twitter last night that Harper Row will be returning in 'Tec #943.

I like her, but I do hope we get back to the old Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain friendship.

Genevive Valentine is still the only writer to make me care even a little about Harper, so I don't exactly have high hopes for her return, especially when the book is already full of better characters I'd prefer to focus on.

Yay I can't wait for Fan favorite Harper Row. Wasn't it great how B+RE was more about her than Batman, or Robins, or the newly introduced Cass? Isn't it great how Cass and her origin are now tied with Harper?

Also my guess is that they are gonna kill off Tim in the issue before Harper comes back and Harper takes his place as tech person.

Tim Drake is James Tynion's all-time favorite character. If DC lets him, Tynion is going to be writing Tim Drake until Detective Comics issue 1000. He's not killing Tim off.

Don't be so sure of that. I've read some eerily plausible theories about how Tim's death and subsequent resurrection could tie into the larger Rebirth storyline. Besides, who better to write a character's death than a huge fan of theirs?

I really doubt Tim is going to have anything to do with the Rebirth meta-narrative, and I'm very confident that Tynion isn't going to kill him off either.

But now I'm interested to see what theories you're talking about are. Mind sharing a link to where you read it?

Sure. I'll also come clean and admit that the theory is actually mine, so I'm a little bit attached to it.

First, the (circumstantial) evidence that Tim is even going to die at all:

• In 'Tec #934 and #935, Tim expresses some frustration over whether he should accept a prestigious grant to a university, even if it means retiring as a vigilante. Sounds like a form a Retirony to me.

• He's forming a pretty solid working relationship with Batwoman, a character who he has only interacted with in maybe three panels before this series started. He has much more extensive relationships with everyone else except maybe Clayface, so perhaps this is making up for lost time, so Kate will be just as saddened by his death as those who have known him longer?

• The third image in this article, which is pencilwork from what is apparently Batman #7, the start of "Night of the Monster Men". The whole 'Tec team and Nightwing are on the rooftop. Tim is not.

• Tim being dead could also explain why Nightwing is there in the first place.

• Tynion has said the second arc (after the crossover) will be focused on Spoiler. She is romantically involved with Tim at the moment, so his death and her reaction to it could serve as a driving force for her story.

• He also said, about a month ago on Twitter, that the end of this first arc will be dark. He specifically compared it to his other book The Woods, mentioning that readers of that know how dark he can get if he wants. The end of one of the arcs of that (I think the first) involved the death of a major character.

• The solicit text for 'Tec #939: "'Rise of the Batmen' part six! The full scope of the Colony's plans, and their mysterious leader, have all been revealed...so what's it going to take to stop them? Believe us, you are not prepared for the last scene!"

• And #940: “'Rise Of The Batmen' part 7! This epic concludes with a battle against the Colony that will change Batman’s world forever—and in a way you’d never expect! Whether they win or lose, they’ve already lost…" "Lost" as in lost a team member, perhaps?

• During a panel at SDCC, Tynion was asked if he would be "retiring" Tim Drake, and he answered no. But he was asked about retiring Tim, not killing him. He also said "if you're a Tim Drake fan, you're going to be really excited about what happens in this series."

• The regular cover for #939 is rather... odd, considering it's just Tim. No other cover so far features only one character except #937, and that has a story purpose for it because Batman was isolated from the rest of the team. In a team book, why would the cover focus on only one character unless there were a reason?

• Tim is shown on the cover of 'Tec #940... but we've seen that DC has solicited fake covers already in Rebirth. They did it for Titans in order to hide the Wally West reveal. Keeping in mind Tim's dating life, who's shown expressing the most sadness on that cover? Steph is.

• The antagonists of the second 'Tec arc sound like they'll be angry Gotham citizens who start fighting back after they get fed up with being hurt or killed in the team's efforts to save Gotham. If Tim does die, they could potentially find out about it and use it as ammo in their argument. "He can't even protect his own people! How can he protect us?", that kind of thing.

Now, as for the actual theory of how Tim's death (if it happens) could tie into Rebirth's overarching story. It's based on Tynion saying that the third arc of 'Tec will be a Cass story, and that Lady Shiva will show up:

• Shiva arrives in Gotham, having finally figured out where Cass is, and also knows that the team has recently lost one of their members. Since Shiva is supremely arrogant, she says something to the effect of "I can defeat you all if I want and take her by force, but I'd rather not bother and make a deal with you instead. You give me Cassandra... and I give you a way to bring back your friend." Meaning, of course, a Lazarus pit. Tim gets revived, and then the team gang up on Shiva and go back on the deal, because seriously, fuck Shiva. They beat her ass and escape.
• This could also tie into the memories being restored thing, since Tim could have his memory jogged after being revived and remember the real Shiva and not her comparatively inept New 52 version, and it would also work for Cass and Kate, since they both have prior experience with pits which are not clearly canon right now.

Edit 2: Okay, link should be fixed now. Edit 3: Added in another piece of evidence I forgot to mention.

edited 2nd Aug '16 7:14:24 PM by caivu

Yeah, you've put a lot of thought into this, but I'm still not convinced that Tynion's going to kill off his favorite character in the first arc just so Spoiler can angst over it. Especially since most of you evidence comes from covers and solicit text (which, as you noted, Covers Always Lie.)

And its weird to me that you think Batwoman and Tim interacting a lot foreshadows him dying. They're interacting a lot because they are the main characters of the book, that's what main characters do.

Like I said, it's all circumstantial. None of it by itself proves anything. But looked at all together, well... I'll say this: on another forum I have some hardcore Tim Drake fans actually rooting for him to die so he can be resurrected and play an awesome larger role in Rebirth.

The reason I picked up on the Tim/Kate thing is because I was expecting them to have a much more contentious relationship than they do. Basically, the way Steph and Tim are interacting with Kate is almost a 180 flip from what I had in mind. I can't help but find that... interesting.

Edit: To clarify, it's not that Tim and Kate are interacting a lot, but that they're interacting so positively.

edited 2nd Aug '16 7:29:10 PM by caivu

Tim needs to die so my collection of dead robins is complete.

Another good bit of circumstantial evidence. AFAIK Tim has never died in the main continuity, and this could be the time to do so.

Dick isn't dead. And really, won't killing Tim just prove all this "hope" they were peddling in promoting Rebirth was a lot of bull.

No, I don't think that would disprove it at all. The Batbooks are always going to be inherently dark anyway, and I think for them that aspect of Rebirth is going to be a case where the end result is on the whole very positive and uplifting, but there are going to be a lot of trials the characters will go through to get there. The night is darkest before the dawn, right?

In the short term, yes, Tim's death (should it happen) would be an enormous blow to the Batfamily. But in the long term, if that theory I described turns out to be true? Then wow, that could lead to really exciting, huge things down the road.

edited 2nd Aug '16 9:50:28 PM by caivu

I know he isn't dead, but he did die for about 5 seconds.

When?

Forever Evil. Lex stopped his breathing until his heart stopped and then restarted it to defuse a bomb Owlman attached to him.

They also faked his death in front of the entire world because his secret identity was compromised.

Nightwing#2

Poor Babs, goes all the way to Tokyo because she's jealous of Dick's international antics, finds a good spot and time for a date, and he's off diving straight into the doghouse with Raptor

Fresh out of TT's Batman series and with a question.

Who in the series do you think is beyond reproach? Like, 100% trustworthy.

I'm thinking just Gordon and Alfred, having difficulty picturing anyone else. I'm a filthy casual, however, only having played the games and watched the movies. Maybe there's someone else?

Dick Grayson ain't trusty?

Dick is more than trusty, but does he count as a regular in the main Batbook?