LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

Why is it a problem that God wanted reality to be broken?

This is not the first time Soban has brought this up by a long shot.

If memory serves I likened the idea to building a car, letting your goldfish drive it and then blaming the fish when it crashed.

Reality is broken. Characters with the Rich and Well Connected traits are completely overpowered, and it's obvious no one playtested the economic mechanics. And the way nubs talk about optimizing your Sexual Orientation stats, it's clear that someone was lying in the player's guide they bought. When do the devs get off their ass and finish the next patch?

Cats: Because that conclusion implies that the omnibenevolent god of the bible intended for the world to be the suffering-filled place that it is, which doesn't sit well with most people. When was the last time you heard someone thank god for creating cancer?

@Soban, Actually it's more like building a car, letting your goldfish drive it, and when your goldfish crashes the car, you stand back and observe pensively, muttering, "Yes, good, good."

If you look only at the OT though that conclusion is entirely believable.

edited 16th Oct '13 2:22:55 PM by ohsointocats

Elfive, you might want to get your memory checked. I said sin is like griefing or not changing the oil in your car. If you want to use the fish metaphor, It's more like giving your of age kids a car with an owners manual and everything and then trying to help them fix it when it breaks because of what they did to it.

The problem with believing God created all the bad stuff is that it ignores the other half of the Bible. (And a theme that is woven throughout the OT. Read Jonah sometime.)

And the problem with believing that he didn't is that it contradicts the other half of the bible. I still don't have an answer from you.

I dunno. Isaiah 45:7 seems to state pretty clearly that God created evil.

It also completely contradicts the idea that evil is the absence of good. But I suppose there's a million and one apologist arguments that apply "it's just a metaphor!" "look at the context!" "it doesn't actually mean what it says" and such responses .

edited 16th Oct '13 2:51:25 PM by Snipehamster

• All-knowing
• All-powerful
• All-loving

Pick two. Reality does not support three.

What about Tough love? XD

The metaphor falls apart when you consider that God built the car, and the kid, and the tree, and the concept of crashing. And knew the kid was going to crash before he started.

So the question you really need to ask is "How the hell did this happen at all?"

God is actually creating Avant Garde art?

I had an interesting encounter with a Buddhist today that pointed out that The Christian view point of homosexuality being a choice is more then just a superimposition of values- it's a stance predicated on the fundamental belief that humans have control over every aspect of their own destiny: an extension of this notion that you are a failure merely because you didn't try hard enough, that your suffering is the result of your own choices.

It's interesting to think about the philosophy behind this notion of everything being under the control of the individual- it actually explains a lot of the hate that gets directed at homosexuals- who's mere existence contradicts such an idea.

Do most Christians view homosexuality as a choice or gay sex as a choice? Because, well, having sex is a choice, I would think.

Well, our local Exception To All The Rules, Starship, views Gay Sex as The Choice. But based on the vast majority of anti-Gay Christians I have personally spoken to (Far more then I care to admit) they view simply being gay as a choice.

But even viewing Gay Sex as a choice plays into this overarching mentality- this idea that every single aspect of our nature is under our control- and that any pain we have in our life is the direct result of bad choices we made. Or something along those lines.

edited 16th Oct '13 3:05:05 PM by LMage

it actually explains a lot of the hate that gets directed at homosexuals- who's mere existence contradicts such an idea.

Only if you accept homosexuality is a choice. Which is much as TV Trope finds Anathema is not the position of the church or many other people.

'Born this way' It's not gospel.

edited 16th Oct '13 3:09:02 PM by joeyjojo

Ah. But still- simply believing that ''is' a choice is an example of this pathology that believing that ultimately all things are under our control. It's a prime example of this.....Narcissism that humanity has as a hole- this belief that It Is All About Us.

Because believing that homosexuality isn't a choice is accepting that are in fact things beyond our control- the way most Christians reconline this Ultimate Plan view of the world- this all powerful, all loving deity with the mess that is our world is Free Will- all pain and suffering is the result of human's choices outside God's plan and against his word.

That's why the church continues to insist homosexuality is a choice- to do otherwise would be to admit that there are indeed factors to creation in which human choice plays no part. And admitting that challenges this whole notion of Free Will and the Ultimate Plan.

The funny thing is that the people most likely to believe that sexual orientation is a chaice are also likely to believe in predestination. Apparently gays and lesbians are the only beings in the universe with free will.

The idea that one is not responsible for directing their fate or one's own actions and should accept the world is one sees it is my main reason why reject the Buddhist philosophy.

edited 16th Oct '13 3:19:30 PM by joeyjojo

Personally I find the concept of some overarching plan laughable. Some sort of divine Indy Ploy maybe, but having to install the messiah patch is not something an omniscient infallible designer would ever need to do.

edited 16th Oct '13 3:19:53 PM by Elfive

I believe that Something created the universe and the laws that govern it but trying to figure out It's purpose, if any, is akin to a bacterium trying to figure out human reasoning.

@Joey

I fall in the middle- I certainly believe our choices have power and merit, but I reject the concept that all evil in this world is the result of people making the "wrong" choices. In fact, I reject the concept of evil all together- as I think it ignores some of the most important factors in place of the world. Of course discussion for another thread.

I've tried to ask my god about the divine opinion on homosexuality, to which the answer was, "What? Why are you bothering me with this shit. I have work to do."

So, inconclusive.

There's not really even a notion of blame attached. Like I keep saying, the OT is pretty thin on moral judgments like that, and it's really just a pragmatic "OK, shit's broken. What now?"

In the OT, the answer was "murder everyone". Since that didn't work, the NT tries a new answer, which is, "forego murder and send a single man to spread a message of love. Then murder HIM! I know murder weighs into it somewhere."