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LGBT Rights and Religion:

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

yarr
[up]I've heard a couple of people call for the pope's arrest.

edited 17th Feb '13 6:44:02 AM by Elfive

 8677 Morgikit, Sun, 17th Feb '13 6:48:53 AM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
My mistake.
Nya

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 8679 Wildcard, Sun, 17th Feb '13 7:05:21 AM from Somewhere in the galaxy
Go! Fly! Win!
We are not really calling for his arrest Morg we just wish we could arrest him cause we don't like him. At least I am.

I don't think it is an excuse, I think he is a terrible person and there are several other terrible people who's views deserve to not be taken seriously. Were just talking about him at the moment.
Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.
yarr
Let's be honest here. The head of any other organisation with such a huge child abuse scandal would at least have been questioned by police, especially if there was reason to believe he had helped hide it.
 8681 Jhimmibhob, Sun, 17th Feb '13 9:30:08 AM from Arm's reach of the julep machine Relationship Status: My own grandpa
[up]I'm not aware of anyone doing this to the U.S. Secretary of Education, so I'm not sure that I buy your assertion.
"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
 8683 Iaculus, Sun, 17th Feb '13 9:38:28 AM from England
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
[up]Well, technically, the Pope is a chief of state too...
Freedom of speech includes the freedom for other people to call you out on your bullshit.
 8684 Qeise, Sun, 17th Feb '13 9:41:20 AM from sqrt(-inf)/0 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
Has the Secretary of Education protected teachers from charges? The union people who have, as well as Ratzinger and any other who aided the pedopriests in fleeing justice, should be prosecuted.
Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
 8685 Jhimmibhob, Sun, 17th Feb '13 9:49:50 AM from Arm's reach of the julep machine Relationship Status: My own grandpa
Certainly administrators—members of the American education "hierarchy, " if you will—have done so, and union representatives & leadership have done so vigorously. There hasn't been much in the way of serious legal consequences, though, especially not at the highest levels. So here and elsewhere, precedent doesn't favour anything much in the way of legal revenge fantasies.
"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
 8686 Radical Taoist, Sun, 17th Feb '13 9:51:14 AM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
Yeah, sexual abuse in the U.S. public school system is more broadly distributed and less hierarchical, with tons of independent administrators engaged in their own ass-covering techniques. A wide overhaul of the entire works across states would be needed (and you know how hard it is to coordinate across states in U.S. politics).

Compare this to the Catholic Church, with its top-to-bottom hierarchy. The Pope - several Popes - could have made things end right then and there by agreeing to cooperate fully with law enforcement officials, ousting bishops who didn't play along, and generally refusing to continue the status quo.
 8687 Qeise, Sun, 17th Feb '13 9:51:56 AM from sqrt(-inf)/0 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
sadThat should get more publicity. But the people actually doing the covering up should be the ones prosecuted.

edited 17th Feb '13 9:53:54 AM by Qeise

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
 8688 Jhimmibhob, Sun, 17th Feb '13 10:11:49 AM from Arm's reach of the julep machine Relationship Status: My own grandpa
[up][up]however top-down and hierarchical the Church may be in theory, in practice it's always given an extraordinary amount of latitude to national churches and archbishoprics, and has nearly as much scope for lateral shenanigans and short-term asscovering as RT describes. Whenever the Vatican has roused itself to bypass national-level hierarchy and take a direct hand, it's usually been after an extraordinary amount of time, sluggish debate, and third, fourth, and fifth chances. That fact doesn't thrill me—especially not in the abuse cases—but it's hard to say that the Vatican was more hands-off or slow to bring the hammer down than usual.

edited 17th Feb '13 10:13:57 AM by Jhimmibhob

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
 8689 Lawyerdude, Sun, 17th Feb '13 10:25:48 AM from my secret moon base
Citizen
Except that the Vatican could have done something and didn't and in many cases set up and implemented policies that the local churches had to follow. The US Department of Education doesn't have authority over local schools' disciplinary policies and internal management.

edited 17th Feb '13 10:26:19 AM by Lawyerdude

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
NCC - 1701
We are not really calling for his arrest Morg we just wish we could arrest him cause we don't like him. At least I am.

I don't think it is an excuse, I think he is a terrible person and there are several other terrible people who's views deserve to not be taken seriously. Were just talking about him at the moment.

Thank you Wildcard for explaining this. I myself thought it was pretty clear, but still.

Additionally, I fail to see where the excuse is when nearly everybody participating in this thread is doing their part to ensure equality.
It was an honor
 8691 Radical Taoist, Sun, 17th Feb '13 10:49:05 AM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
The other factor is, due to local politics rewarding people who want to make public school teaching a minimum wage job, education departments don't have the funds to do a proper overhaul. The entire USDE got a little under 100 billion dollars in 2011 according to Wikipedia. I suspect that the Catholic Church has a bit more disposable income than the U.S. Department of Education.
 8692 shimaspawn, Sun, 17th Feb '13 11:18:26 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
It's more the fact that we know he was directly involved in the cover-up. There is no evidence that the secretary of Education was directly involved with the cover-up. There's a difference between something bad happening on your watch, and participating in something bad happening on your watch. The pope participated.

Now, mind you, he didn't participate when he was pope. It was before he was pope that this happened. Before he was pope, he was directly in charge of investigating, punishing, and reassigning paedophile priests. And he still put them back where they could get at children and covered up their crimes from the secular authorities.

So it's got nothing to do with him being the head of the organization or Pope, but instead the fact that he actively helped hurt children.

edited 17th Feb '13 11:22:19 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 8693 shimaspawn, Sun, 17th Feb '13 9:31:06 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Sorry for the double post, but this vid seems relevant:

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 8694 L Mage, Mon, 18th Feb '13 11:45:24 AM from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Evil Trickster
[up]

Can we just all agree that The West Wing is amazing? :P
"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
 8695 Achaemenid, Mon, 18th Feb '13 12:16:05 PM from the jetty, gazing at the sea. Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
NCC - 1701
Yes, Mr. President, beat a Straw Fundamentalist and pat yourself on the back for your rather insipid conclusions. I stand for the President because the Bible tells me to honor my leaders.

If he, or any real world leader, approached me with such self-righteous ignorance, I'd have glued my ass to that chair and told him to get the Secret Service if he didn't like it to carry me out.

But, alas, this is Hollywood so this sort of posturing comes off as a Crowning Moment Of Awesome. No matter, Real Life is a different ball game than some TV Show with an agenda, and the results change accordingly.
It was an honor
 8697 Silasw, Mon, 18th Feb '13 6:25:34 PM from UK :( Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Globalist Bunny
Starship have you watched the West Wing? I think you’d like it, they're all extremely idealistic and the president himself is actually a very devote Christian. As for the fundamentalist begin made of straw, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of real American radio hoists who say the exact same thing, so I don't think the strawman accusation works.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael

"A nuclear powered magnet death ball is perfectly scientifically possible." ~ Discar
NCC - 1701
Silasw, I really hate it when you make me see that I've overreacted.
It was an honor
 8699 shimaspawn, Mon, 18th Feb '13 6:46:39 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Yes, President Barlett in that show is very very Christian. The reason that he's upset with her is because he sees her as perverting the religion.

And at the time that show aired, there were media pundits saying those exact things in the media. There still are. You can only have Strawmen if you don't have people vocally espousing the same ideas. In fact, she's toned down from some of the actual media figures. That's the problem.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
NCC - 1701
In other words, the very same things I say about Fred Phelps...

Note to self: Don't assume the thread is out to get Christians.
It was an honor
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