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LGBT Rights and Religion:

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

NCC - 1701
Maxima, you condemn homosexuality, but you refuse to believe that it should be condemned by death, which is two specific passages about eachother.

I refuse to believe homosexuality, or any other sin, should be condemned by death because The Bible ALSO expressly forbids harming those who pose no threat to you. Here's the proof, from Jesus's own mouth, in Matthew Chapter 7, Verses 1-4

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

It was an honor
Princess Ymir's knightess
How bad do you personally think homosexuality is on the sin scale anyway? XDD

 4478 Pykrete, Wed, 24th Oct '12 12:21:28 PM from Viridian Forest
NOT THE BEES
Oh, I guess it wasn't execution for sex during menstruation, it was exile. The wording implies septic issues, so yeah, that's hygiene right in the middle of the sexual ethics bits.

edited 24th Oct '12 12:22:50 PM by Pykrete

I want Kat's glasses!
If the cause was about shortage of (military) manpower, conscription would make more sense.
They Called Me Mad!! I decided to show them all; but when I looked on my works, oh mighty, I despaired: for it made me realize they were right.
NCC - 1701
How bad do you personally think homosexuality is on the sin scale anyway? XDD

I'll assume you're asking me that question. The truth, I find it weird, in as much as I have no frame for reference, as women turn me on and the thought of sex with a guy or surgically altered guy is...squicky.

But....place it on the sin scale...it would be somewhere with stiffing the waiter and rudely taking a parking spot somebody wanted. As in...not that big a fucking deal.
It was an honor
Princess Ymir's knightess
I guess we're the same in that regard, since I pretty much think the same about being together with a guy. :P

NCC - 1701
Great minds, eh?
It was an honor
 4483 Morgikit, Wed, 24th Oct '12 12:29:29 PM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
I'd rather be called a parking spot grabber than a Nazi. :p
Insert witty comment here.
Princess Ymir's knightess
[up][up] But I'm a girl, so it's sinful!

And you call me a great mind! Pff.

edited 24th Oct '12 12:30:06 PM by kay4today

I'm an Irene!
Then that means, Maxima, that you only believe certain parts of Leviticus, which goes down to my point; You're cherry-picking which you believe is the best solution.

That's all I want you to realize. And with that said, it's infallible since not all parts are true overall.

No, I'm not asking you to change your views, or interpret it differently, just to realize it's not a perfect book. That's all I'm getting at. Do you understand now?
NCC - 1701
I'd rather be called a parking spot grabber than a Nazi. :p

It's a classic day when someone actually prefers to be Godwinned. [lol]

And you call me a great mind, pfft!

I have a hard time arguing with somebody who's into hot women.
It was an honor
Princess Ymir's knightess
My, what a Double Standard!

 4488 Radical Taoist, Wed, 24th Oct '12 12:46:28 PM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
@Maxima:
I'm not discussing whether or not you believe the Bible is some old Book that came together over thousands of years of editing or if it's God's own Word as written through the people he instructed to write it. I've addressed that point already.
You have not addressed my point that uneducated Bronze Age goat herders would have been unable to avoid screwing up no matter how specific any more intelligent being instructing them was. Heck, if someone from today was to go back and try to explain genetic biology and modern germ theory to them, they would screw it up; they lack the conceptual foundation and have too many tribal biases.

You have not addressed that point; in fact, you've been rather pointedly avoiding my posts for the last few pages.

@kay: The verb is to reproduce. Who me, Grammar Nazi? Naahhhh.

@Crisis of Infinite Jesus: Why is this not a thing?
NCC - 1701
No Taoist, I just don't have anything to add. I believe that God divinely inspired the writing of the Word, specifically because Bronze Age herders wouldn't've been able to write it otherwise.

Then that means, Maxima, that you only believe certain parts of Leviticus, which goes down to my point; You're cherry-picking which you believe is the best solution.

idea I think I'm beginning to see the problem. You consider the Bible a bunch of disjointed texts. As in, they're bound by nothing more than being in the same Book.

I think you perceive the Bible to be a box-set of different movies with a tangential relationship, kinda like a Bruce Willis collection of The Sixth Sense, Looper, and Armeggeddon.

I look at the Bible as being like the Die Hard trilogy or the complete collection of Star Wars. The Books of the Bible are a chapters in a complete and overarching thought. Ignoring one means that you won't fully understand the rest.
It was an honor
Wasn't the point of Jesus dying on the cross to forgive all peoples of their sin?

Why does the church even care about gay believers?

 4491 Carciofus, Wed, 24th Oct '12 1:27:57 PM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
Intent to reproduce is not necessary in Catholic doctrine. What is required is that the possibility of reproduction is not prevented.
Right. Sorry, I misspoke.
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

I'm an Irene!
Don't compare the Bible to movies, please. I find that rather demeaning.

And no, they do exist as a whole, but they also are written by different people who believe different things. As in... there is no one true voice being written. Just a bunch of smaller voices who may be right.

In a sense, yeah, that's what I believe, but then again, that's actually how it really exists. Because faulty humans wrote it, not God himself.

The reason it evolved a bit, is because the culture did too. One thing to note is that some of the Bible is based upon culture more than universal standards. The universal standards are the Ten Commandments, and most specifically, the respect thing. The whole "homosexuality is a sin"(which isn't state that way anyway) was not meant for everyone to believe.

The reason I don't believe all of it is infallible, is because there's too much stupid stuff that isn't even really written out/abolished later on. Assuming Leviticus meant Homosexuality, it's never abolished later, meaning that we're told that it should be treated as an evil thing. Now, I'm sorry, but I don't care what the Good Book says. I am not about to treat that as anything but an evil idea and that it is just plain wrong. I'm going to cherrypick too. Like we all do.

And I'm going to believe everybody deserves equal rights, including marriage, and that all sexualities are not a sin by any means.(I will note, I'm not a fan of incest, but I do not believe it to be wrong except when genetic problems happen. Outside of that, it's fine)

I preach tolerance to all, equality to all, and the only illegal acts should be the Ten Commandments. I also am fine with Polygamy, to note. Because that is not Adultery as long as they were all married that way.
NCC - 1701
Wasn't the point of Jesus dying on the cross to forgive all peoples of their sin?

Why does the church even care about gay believers?

That is the ENTIRE point of Jesus existing. Now, forgivenss of sins doesn't mean we now stop calling something a sin so as to not offend people. That is not love.

The Church is supposed to care about homosexuals, the same way it's supposed to care about fornicators, thieves, short-tempered people, liars, tax cheats, etc.

You're supposed to care enough to tell them you believe they're wrong. You're supposed to care enough to BE there for them when they need it. You're supposed to care enough to STAND against those who'd mistreat them.

That's the point of Jesus's existence and by extension, the Church's.

It was an honor
 4494 shimaspawn, Wed, 24th Oct '12 1:35:01 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
The big issue of incest is really one of power dynamics. Incest is very rarely consensual but instead tends to coerced and fucked up by one partner feeling that if they don't do this then they don't really love the other. It's sort of a form of Stockholm syndrome. There are consent issues there even beyond the genetics.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Princess Ymir's knightess
Starship, you've never told me I'm wrong before!

[up][up][up]Tone doesn't come off well online, what you just said is essentially what I failed to convey properly.

edited 24th Oct '12 1:36:05 PM by GlassPistol

I want Kat's glasses!
[up]x4 The problem is, believing they're wrong is already harmful enough due to how people act on that, consciously or not.

[up][up][up]Isn't that quite specific to Parental Incest? Within the same generation, there may be neither more nor less power/consent issues than with normal couples.

edited 24th Oct '12 1:38:15 PM by Medinoc

They Called Me Mad!! I decided to show them all; but when I looked on my works, oh mighty, I despaired: for it made me realize they were right.
@shimaspawn; I'm just not sure if incest is something that occurs in a psychologically healthy, natural environment. Is it possible for one to be pedisposed to it in the same way as homosexuality, bisexuality, etc?

I want Kat's glasses!
@Max: I think the problem is both "sides" are seeing the problem by different angles:
  • You see the angle that "the bible can't be wrong because it was written by God possessing people"[citation needed] and therefore, homosexuality is wrong.
  • We see the angle that "Homosexuality can't be wrong because it harms nobody", therefore, the Bible can't be right (and Therefore, it can't have been written by God without faulty middlemen).

[down]Ah, OK. Understood.

edited 24th Oct '12 1:55:46 PM by Medinoc

They Called Me Mad!! I decided to show them all; but when I looked on my works, oh mighty, I despaired: for it made me realize they were right.
 4500 shimaspawn, Wed, 24th Oct '12 1:42:07 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
@ Medinoc: No, actually it's common in Brother-Sister Incest as well normally with the older sibling being the aggressor and convincing the younger one that they need to keep it secret and that it's how you show someone you love them. Incest in general just does not have a tendency to be truly consensual which is probably in part because it is so taboo.

edited 24th Oct '12 1:43:05 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Total posts: 15,600
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181 182 183 184 185 ... 624


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