LGBT Rights and Religion:

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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

4251 Kostya19th Oct 2012 08:25:35 PM from Everywhere
The Razruchityel
Relevant. Make sure you watch the entire thing, especially his closing statement.
4252 deathpigeon19th Oct 2012 09:48:46 PM from Everything sacred is a tie, a fetter. , Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
That reminds me of a story I heard, once, of this guy who made this big fiery speech 60s in the about how the Commies are going to be invading, and how we need to fight back and stuff. All the while people were cheering and getting into the speech. At the end he told his gathered audience that it was a speech that Hitler gave during his rise to power. Everyone went silent.
Ich hab' Mein' Sach' auf Nichts gestellt.

My Story
4253 Kostya20th Oct 2012 01:41:58 PM from Everywhere
The Razruchityel
I took this picture in the parking lot of my church. Said church is primarily populated by white fifty somethings. Nice to know some people get it.

edited 20th Oct '12 1:42:14 PM by Kostya

Pronounced YAK-you-luss
[up]Well, assuming they were there to attend a service.

EDIT: OK, missed the link. That speech was cool.

edited 22nd Oct '12 10:40:29 AM by Iaculus

Freedom of speech includes the freedom for other people to call you out on your bullshit.
4256 Morgikit22nd Oct 2012 10:37:32 AM from    Alabama    , Relationship Status: In season
Zorua Girl
Yes, Max, we're quite aware that non-asshole Christians exist. I've actually met a few, and dated one for awhile. I don't see why you feel the need to defend people like Harris though. You do them no favors and make yourself look worse by association. And I'm sorry but I don't buy his "explanation" one bit. "When I said that if you have a limp-wristed son, you should break his wrists, I didn't mean you should literally break his actual wrists. It's a metaphor, silly rabbit!"
"Morgi's thing is political activism, furriness, and being fudging adorable." - Enkufka
4257 Lawyerdude22nd Oct 2012 10:51:26 AM from my secret moon base
Citizen
All the same, it's good to finally see a Christian preacher openly admit that Christianity was on the wrong side of slavery, the wrong side of womens' rights, and the wrong side of racial segregation. I'm tired of people claiming that "Christianity" was somehow always on the right side of these things.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
4258 Euodiachloris22nd Oct 2012 12:06:49 PM from England (Oop North) , Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
Euo will do!
Who's argued against the fact that the Bible was used to justify slavery?

However... I should like to point out that although mainstream "Christianity", if you wish to suggest that there's a single such thing, did support the status quo for some time, there were always pockets who argued against the whole concept... also using the Bible and their Christian ideals as a basis. <shrugs>

Not to mention, a few rationalists were also rather good at arguing for slavery as an economic force. tongue John Locke (never the most religious of people), in particular, springs to mind... tongue

In short: people will find a way to justify anything using whatever they wish. tongue
"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
4259 shimaspawn22nd Oct 2012 12:23:11 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Our local Starship for one, but I've seen others do it. It's sort of a weird defence mechanism for their faith. They can't believe that it was ever used to do anything wrong so they'll try to force it into being on the side of light. Even when Christianity has been used as a tool to do horrible things in the past and still is. Often with the same sort of arguments that were used against the previous thing it was used to demonize.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
4260 Lawyerdude22nd Oct 2012 12:25:49 PM from my secret moon base
Citizen
The standard argument I've heard is something like, "Christians may have done bad things, but Christianity doesn't actually support them", which to me sounds completely absurd. I don't see Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, having any objective existence outside of its members. Moreover, anybody wanting to take the credit for the good thing other members of their religion have done, but avoid blame for the bad things are just cherry-picking.

edited 22nd Oct '12 12:28:22 PM by Lawyerdude

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
NCC - 1701
[up][up][up] What the green one said. Although, Euo, I must be honest and say there are Christians who like to pretend they get nothing wrong. I've met Christians who'll quote a thousand verses and go to all manner of lengths to suggest that they weren't, in fact, dead wrong.

No disrespect to the gay rights lobby, but that is the reason people are leaving the Churches, not necessarily gay rights. People get sick and tired of having their intelligence insulted, as many people in organized religion are wont to do. You get sick and tired of living a lie, especially when the Bible makes it clear, it's okay to be wrong.

"When I said that if you have a limp-wristed son, you should break his wrists, I didn't mean you should literally break his actual wrists. It's a metaphor, silly rabbit!"

When I read Pastor Harris's statements, that was exactly the interpretation I got, that it was a metaphor. Much like the whole idea of "limp wrists" is itself an (inaccurate) metaphor.

I want to clear something up, I don't feel a need to "defend" anyone. I do think, however, that I have a certain point-of-view, and I think that on LGBTQ issues I see things sometimes that others don't; just as others see things in ways I don't.

I enjoy this exercise where we all pool our viewpoints on given ideas because just the mere sharing of ideas in an open and safe space lays the foundation for us all to eventual find truth, and more importantly, the understanding that is vital to any meaningful and lasting peace, if there's to be any peace at all.

edited 22nd Oct '12 12:32:57 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Action is Virtue. Idleness is Vice.
EDIT: Deleted for being irrelevant.

edited 22nd Oct '12 12:27:36 PM by dRoy

Follow your passion, be prepared to work hard and sacrifice, and, above all, don't let anyone limit your dreams. - Donovan Daily

4263 Euodiachloris22nd Oct 2012 12:28:37 PM from England (Oop North) , Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
Euo will do!
There isn't an ideal in this world that can't be twisted to fit. And, people will do that. And, that doesn't make them right, good or novel. <shrugs> How is this news?

Heck: any group of people will twist anything, given half a chance. Take a look at how people treat the Declaration of Human Rights some time. tongue

Blaming Christianity as a whole for this is like blaming the tool, not the specific people who use it that way.

edited 22nd Oct '12 12:29:47 PM by Euodiachloris

"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
4264 RadicalTaoist22nd Oct 2012 12:29:49 PM from the #GUniverse
Action is Virtue. Idleness is Vice.
@Radical Taoist - My editing wasn't fast enough, apparently. XP

I am from South Korea. I guess my country is pretty intolerant when it comes homosexuality; it just doesn't get mentioned at all.

edited 22nd Oct '12 12:31:40 PM by dRoy

Follow your passion, be prepared to work hard and sacrifice, and, above all, don't let anyone limit your dreams. - Donovan Daily

NCC - 1701
Our local Starship for one,

Citation Needed. While you look that up, here's a sampling of what I've ACTUALLY said. "Christians have failed repeatedly and have done some horrific things." "Christianity has been perverted to justify and condone acts of brutality that have shamed the banner of Christ." "Christians have blood on their hands".

I don't see Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, having any objective existence outside of its members.

It seems you lack a basic understanding of the differences between ideals and beliefs and their applications.

Blaming Christianity as a whole for this is like blaming the tool, not the specific people who use it that way.

The Force is stong with this one.

edited 22nd Oct '12 12:33:25 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
4267 Lawyerdude22nd Oct 2012 12:45:13 PM from my secret moon base
Citizen
It seems you lack a basic understanding of the differences between ideals and beliefs and their applications.

Not really. Peoples' actions reflect their values. If somebody says that they believe that God is against equal rights for LGBT people, I presume that they actually believe that. Saying that somebody or another perverted Christianity and did bad things doesn't really mean much, since the argument goes both ways.

Christian supporters of slavery and segregation were no less certain in their beliefs as Christians today who oppose slavery and segregation. Both types of Christians believe that they other is perverting the essence and meaning of Christianity, and there's no objective way of proving who, if any, is "right".
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
4268 shimaspawn22nd Oct 2012 12:52:47 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
It's the whole claiming the good while denying the bad. Especially since denying all the bad as simple perversion makes you susceptible to the same thing happening again targeting another group. Homosexuality is a sin is the exact same thing as miscegenation is a sin. You're just targeting a different group with your hate but because you label the previous evil as 'not something we did' it makes it easier to not take responsibility for current evils.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
NCC - 1701
Christian supporters of slavery and segregation were no less certain in their beliefs as Christians today who oppose slavery and segregation. Both types of Christians believe that they other is perverting the essence and meaning of Christianity, and there's no objective way of proving who, if any, is "right"

That's my point. You cannot conveniently blame Christianity for everything wrong thing under the sun, and then ignore that many of those evils were combated by....yes, that's right...Christians.

You can acknowledge what many of us have said from the get-go, some of us are compelled by our Bible to do right, others to do evil.

As I said before, it is a catalyst, like patriotism, fear, science, or anything else. It's neither good nor bad. Stop blaming Christianity and instead blame the Christians who've misused and abused it.

I don't think it's that hard a concept.

It's the whole claiming the good while denying the bad. Especially since denying all the bad as simple perversion makes you susceptible to the same thing happening again targeting another group. Homosexuality is a sin is the exact same thing as miscegenation is a sin. You're just targeting a different group with your hate but because you label the previous evil as 'not something we did' it makes it easier to not take responsibility for current evils.

Shima, honestly, either show me where anyone has "claimed the good while denying the bad," show me where "homosexuality is a sin like miscegenation", show me where we're denying the wrong and targeting a new group........

....or else stop making these nonsensical and baseless statements.

edited 22nd Oct '12 12:57:31 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
4270 HilarityEnsues22nd Oct 2012 12:56:59 PM from Standing between Sho'Nuff and total supremacy. , Relationship Status: Naked on a bearskin rug, playing the saxophone
Christians may have done bad things, but Christianity doesn't actually support them

Actually, I see the opposite argument used a lot more than this one - that most believers are more reasonable than their own religion. Think about it - the main reason we can distinguish between "nutty" and "moderate" Christians is that the former takes the Bible far more literally. They believe that man walked with dinosaurs, that there really was a worldwide flood and that Noah managed to get two of every single animal onto one boat. Even amongst mainstream Christians, the basic litmus test for whether you're reasonable mainly depends on how much of the Bible you take literally vs how much of it you interpret in a allegorical, symbolic sense. There's still a tacit admission that all that stuff is there, it's just not supposed to take it at face value for whatever reason.

It's confusing for me, but it's not the same thing as outright denying their religion supports certain things... I think.

edited 22nd Oct '12 12:58:30 PM by HilarityEnsues

4271 shimaspawn22nd Oct 2012 01:03:45 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
You yourself have called homosexuality a sin and the majority of your arguments are identical to the ones made in the 50's and 60's that miscegenation was a sin. I'm just pointing out the cycle of the religion oppressing someone new and being used to spread hate in the exact same ways to a new group of people.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
NCC - 1701
Kind of, but not quite Hilarity.

We can call sit down and argue whether the Bible supports us or not, but there are certain points where what's written in the Book is there and no amount of arguing will change it. Additionally, some parts might be confusing or ambiguous or whatever. Others are as clear as blue sky on a cloudless day.

We can argue about whether or not the Bible meant "lie with a man" as in two guys lying down, or if it meant two dudes banging each other.

The Bible is emphatic and repetitive in saying that no mere mortal, who's flawed and fucked up as the next, has any business or right to judge another mere mortal. That duty is God's and God's alone.

Those are the words. There's no argument on that issue.

You yourself have called homosexuality a sin and the majority of your arguments are identical to the ones made in the 50's and 60's that miscegenation was a sin. I'm just pointing out the cycle of the religion oppressing someone new and being used to spread hate in the exact same ways to a new group of people.

You were wrong the first 50 times you said this, and you are wrong again now.

First, there's nothing in the Bible that says that two people of different ethnicities cannot have sexual relations or get married. Hell the Bible doesn't even say banging a Green-Skinned Space Babe is a problem.

Second, my arguments are not the same as theirs, except in the most specious terms. The arguments you're referring to were used with the express purpose of marginalizing and belittling a group of people.

My arguments are constantly couched in the wider context that all of us are equally dignified human beings before Man, before the country, and before God himself.

If this isn't so, then please show me where.

edited 22nd Oct '12 1:10:59 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
4273 Lawyerdude22nd Oct 2012 01:13:58 PM from my secret moon base
Citizen
That's my point. You cannot conveniently blame Christianity for everything wrong thing under the sun, and then ignore that many of those evils were combated by....yes, that's right...Christians.

I never said Christians were responsible for everything wrong under the sun.

But it doesn't impress me when Christians claim that Christianity opposed evil things while Christians were responsible for those evil things in the first place. And while people like Dr. King are very admirable for standing up for minority rights, he was standing up for his own minority.

It's no test of moral character to fight for your own rights. A real test of character is commitment to fight for the rights of others. Protecting your own interests is only human. Protecting the well-being of others when you don't stand to gain yourself is honorable.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
NCC - 1701
It's no test of moral character to fight for your own rights. A real test of character is commitment to fight for the rights of others. Protecting your own interests is only human. Protecting the well-being of others when you don't stand to gain yourself is honorable.

I suppose gays and lesbians aren't all that impressive for fighting for their own rights...hm?

The problem with your thesis is that you assume that simply because one is fighting for their own rights, that automatically makes it worthwhile. Not so. Not when fighting your rights means you'll be lonely, insulted, made to feel like shit, beaten, and maybe killed. Especially when the alternative, keeping your mouth shut, promises to be relatively painless.

It takes a phenomenal amount of courage to decide to fight for what's rightfully yours in the face of staggering odds. That's the definition of character.

But it doesn't impress me when Christians claim that Christianity opposed evil things while Christians were responsible for those evil things in the first place.

That's fair. You don't have to be impressed with Christians. But don't act they're mysteriously behind every evil deed either.

edited 22nd Oct '12 1:19:42 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
In uffish thought
Second, my arguments are not the same as theirs, except in the most specious terms. The arguments you're referring to were used with the express purpose of marginalizing and belittling a group of people.

I hate to say this, but so are yours. Supporting traditional marriage only, whether with Bible-based arguments or no, is marginalising and belittling a group of people.

EDIT:
That's fair. You don't have to be impressed with Christians. But don't act they're mysteriously behind every evil deed either.

Could you point to where someone did that in this thread? All I've seen is others accepting that Christians have done good things and bad things, as have all other groups. Thanks!

edited 22nd Oct '12 1:26:20 PM by Telcontar


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