LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

Yes it is. The passive allowance of evil is itself evil, you have the means and the cause to stop them but you don't. They are claiming your religion, you aren't doing anything to oppose that. That's all the contribution they need from you to keep their image solid.

Many of them voice their views in secular manners, as opposed to ways that emphasize their faith.

Then clearly either their faith is not important enough to them for them to defend it from the erosion it's suffering, or they don't feel there is an issue with way their faith is portrayed.

Assuming that any religious group has a single monolithic attitude is completely ignorant. The responsibility to not make generalizations falls on the people making the generalizations. It's not the Christians' responsibility to ensure that you don't assume they all hate gays. Nor is it the Muslims' responsibility to make sure you don't assume they all hate women.

I'm not making generalizations, I allow for the outlyers and the minorities, but their potent enough to be of true consequence, because they have not worked to make themselves potent. I hope, I pray they have success and overthrow the bigots and the idiots running their religion, but until they do, or make some real step in that direction I am left with nothing but what I observe, and right now that is a whole lot of hate within the Church and not nearly enough compassion fighting it.

I'm not saying they need to spend every moment of every day fighting it either, but I am saying that if they want me to treat them as different, as the one true to their faith, they need to prove to me they care enough about to stop the people dragging it's name through the mud with their hate day in and day out.

Define "allowance". Because there are many Christians who don't have strong views on the subject and prefer to stay quiet, and many others who support gay rights but don't have easy ways to express it. "Allowing" other Christians to say things doesn't mean they agree with them. Remember that bigots tend to be unwilling to change their views. Arguing with them tends to be an exercise in futility, so many don't bother. And as has been said before, bigotry tends to be proportionally louder than tolerance.

Also, by the way, I'm Agnostic, not Christian.

edited 7th Sep '12 4:49:20 PM by Boredman

Standing by and doing nothing while people do thing you think are abhorrent and evil seems a pretty good definition to me.

And as has been said before, bigotry tends to be proportionally louder than tolerance.

This I do not believe. It isn't the thing being said, but rather passion behind it, that makes something loud.

You're flat out admitting that you're making sweeping generalizations and assuming that Christians are homophobic by default. Judge people by their own actions.

And why shouldn't I? Personal experience has long since taught me it's better to assume the worst of everyone and remain guarded then assume the best and put myself at risk. With Christians in particular.

Ah, and my apologize, I didn't mean to assume.

And what exactly should they do? Most moderate people tend to shy away from political and religious conflicts, especially if it's both. A lot of these people find that the most comfortable and reliable way for them to fight against it is to vote in support of gay rights. Voting is much quieter and more polite than yelling on a street corner.

Exactly. People with ignorant and bigoted views are more likely to be passionate and angry about them.

Congratulations! You're using the same logic used by racists and basically every bigot ever.

edited 7th Sep '12 5:06:22 PM by Boredman

...With all the reports of police brutality towards political protesters (in general) and arrests almost at the drop of a hat in some cases, is it really that surprising that people might be hesitant to take it to the streets over this? Or over anything, for that matter?

edited 7th Sep '12 5:14:41 PM by HilarityEnsues

Why? Why can't positive messages carry just as much weight as ones with hate? Why are people so squeamish to stand up and say what they believe in? Why is it so hard get passionate, to get angry, about the injustices of the world, about the hatred and the malice and the bigotry? I refuse, refuse to believe that good pepole, with good hearts, and able mind can't raise their voices to met the hate in the world inch for inch. I refuse to believe that the bad outweighs the good.

Congratulations! You're using the same logic used by racists and basically every bigot ever.

This I take personal offense to. I have spent my entire life fighting of bigotry in one capacity or another, don't mistake my refusal to be a victim as being the same as the people I oppose. My cynicism is not ignorance, it's the result of long personal struggle against a wide variety of groups, not just Christians.

People can't let fear rule them. If everyone just stays in because their might be a backlash nothing will ever be accomplished. Complacency will just leave us spinning our tiers in the mud without progress.

edited 7th Sep '12 5:41:32 PM by LMage

If you don't want to be called a bigot, don't act like one. Making sweeping generalizations only hurts your case. No amount of personal experience justifies labeling all of a group as one thing or another. Especially when more than a quarter of that group defies your assumption.

edited 7th Sep '12 5:58:10 PM by Boredman

Well, what about just telling as many people as you can to go out and vote, since the Democrats have officially adopted gay rights into their platform?

I'm not saying good can't outweigh bad. I'm saying that the bad tends to draw more attention.

@Bored

I'm not labeling an entire group as exactly one thing, it's not like I doubt the existence of good Christians committed to doing right in the world, what I am doubting is their ability to make a large enough difference against the overwhelming majority.

As for your "one forth" I would like a citation. I don't buy it myself.

edited 7th Sep '12 6:03:35 PM by LMage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Religion

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/population/religion.html

About 75% of Americans are Christian. About 50% of Americans support gay marriage (This statistic was widely reported recently and had its own thread here). Assuming the smallest amount of overlap possible, this means that about 25% of Americans are both Christian and gay marriage supporters. That number makes up about half of the country's gay rights supporters. For reference, in the U.S., there are more Christian gay marriage supporters than there are atheists.

edited 7th Sep '12 6:22:15 PM by Boredman

@Bored

I remember reading that study, and it had serious flaws most importantly of which is that is that it did not ask about the degree of one's faith. If I'm remembering correctly (and I fully concede that I might) the vast majority of those that identified as Christian where neither regular Church goers (or any denotation) or particularly devote, and only identified as such because they had been brought up that way.

That doesn't mean they're not Christian. I do agree that if they had asked about devoutness, there likely would have been a trend where more moderate Christians supported gay marriage. Still, you don't get to dictate to them what their beliefs are. If they consider themselves Christian, they're Christian. None of that No True Scotsman garbage.

And this is my own impression, but it seems likely to me that the gay marriage issue will die down in a few years, with public consensus siding towards supporting it. People are much more willing to hold on to their faith than their views on social issues. More and more Christians are coming to terms with the fact that the passages in the Bible used to condemn homosexuality were mainly either taken out of context, or are from sections that are about hygiene. Plus the fact that most Christians that I know of are aware of the fact that the Bible isn't to be taken 100% literally.

edited 7th Sep '12 7:04:29 PM by Boredman

My mom works at a pro-LGBT (or at least a non anti-LGBT church). A significant problem is that the media likes the juicy stories (shocker) and is much more likely to talk about the Westboro Baptist Church than a church that practices tolerance of homosexuals.

I'm agreeing with @Boredman on the christian thing, your christian if you say your christian. "degree of one's faith" be damned.

edited 7th Sep '12 8:06:07 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Sadly, media companies base their schedule on what makes money, not inspirational speeches. Stories about outrageous bastardry pulls in more viewers than about people who aren't batshit insane and thus less interesting.

edited 7th Sep '12 9:59:02 PM by Pykrete

Didn't I just say that?

Is it the media's fault that when I leave the house I'm more likely to come across a "down with the queers" Christian than a "it's ok to be gay" Christian? And if I see type 1 far more than type 2, why should I assume that type 2 is the majority, as has been claimed here?

edited 8th Sep '12 8:42:24 AM by Morgikit

Nobody claimed that, buddy.

Maybe it's where you live, but, when I leave the house, I never come across any of the "down with the queers" type of Christian. Plus, currently 52% of Americans are in favor of gay marriage [source], and 78% of Americans are Christian [source], so, even if all of the people who oppose gay marriage were Christian, which is doubtful, then a full 38% of American Christians would support gay marriage, which would take up 30% of the American population. However, this is highly unlikely give there are also significant portions of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Atheists who oppose gay marriage, so it's probably even more than that.

edited 8th Sep '12 8:57:55 AM by deathpigeon

Like I said, those statistics are seriously flawed, and personally speaking I don't buy them at all. I think degree of Faith is a factor, a large one that does matter. Because if your Christian as a after thought, if you only say it because it's something your parents said as you where growing up, then I don't think you really count as Christian, especially not what the majority of Christians is turning it into.

Because if clearly their Faith isn't important enough to them to try and make it reflect their views, why should we consider them Christians, when in all functionality they aren't?

Except for you and Maxima on the last page, buddy.

edited 8th Sep '12 9:17:48 AM by Morgikit

You're not the one who decides who is and isn't a Christian. Despite what you seem to think, a lot of the people you claim aren't Christians do in fact follow Jesus and perceive him as the son of God. That alone makes them Christians. You're trying to redefine what a Christian is. Just because they're moderate, that doesn't make them less Christian.

No we didn't. We never said that they're the majority. We said that they exist and there are enough of them so that you shouldn't generalize all Christians as homophobic.

edited 8th Sep '12 9:36:09 AM by Boredman

Nobody said all Christians are homophobic, either.

No I'm not. Christians are the ones redefining what it means to be Christians, if "moderets" want to be recognized and known as Christians, then it's up them to insure the image and defination of Christianity reflects them and their views. If they cannot commit the time and effort to being recognized as such, then clearly their Faith is not important enough to them to be defended and is not truly their faith at all.

edited 8th Sep '12 9:42:17 AM by LMage

That's a crock of shit and you know it. Nobody said it was the media's fault that you run into the "down with the queers" Christians.

As deathpigeon explained, and as the statistics have repeated ad naseum, the divides are along geography and age lines. I've met all of three "down with the queers" types in the two decades plus I've lived in the Bronx. And they weren't three Christians, they were three overall.

@L Mage, I don't know you personally to expound on it, but, it seems to me you must've experienced some particularly nasty so-called Christians in your past, and it seems to me that those experiences have stuck with you since.

I know being gay isn't easy, and I'm sorry for whatever people claiming my faith have done to make it that way. But this has to stop. You can't let the past overwhelm you in this way.

And that's what's happening. Re-read your posts. Every single point you've brought up has been debunked and proven false, or at least not as solid rock certain as you suggest. And every single time you respond some combination of "But those stats are faulty," or "Well those guys/organizations don't count," or "Well that message doesn't seem reach as far," or "Those deeds aren't enough."

First off, that level of presumption and disrespect is uncalled for. As I've told you before it is no more your place to judge the dedication and commitment of me and my kind than it is my place to judge your sexuality. You have no right to demand more than my best, which is what I give to this cause.

But besides the arrogance of that kind of thinking, you are hurting yourself. I know you've said several times you and your kind "don't need [us]". While I admire your courage (honestly, Christians dig that kind of "Fuck you, I won't bow before you" type attitude) I don't believe that statement is true. But...let's say it is.

You are still hurting yourself. How? By allowing prejudgment and preconception to shut you out from the possibilities. Your gross overestimation of Christianity's malevolence is a weight you don't have to carry. I ask you again, how long are you going to carry it? How many stats and studies do you need? How many non-gay-bashing Christians does it take for you to believe? At what point will their deeds be sufficient to you?

As I've said to you many times before, I don't ask this because you are somehow doing 'me' a favor. I ask you so that you might finally let the past go and embrace the future. To quote Battlestar Galactica, just because this has all happened before, does NOT mean it must happen again.