Cessation of Existence & Afterlives.

It's perhaps not so much a "meh, I don't care" attitude (at least for some people) as an acceptance of what they consider the reality of the situation. It's not selfish if they consider it to actually true, it's just an acceptance of that truth. There are those who are able to genuinely accept and be at peace with things they can't change. Whether the afterlife exists or not, it's existence isn't dependent on our belief in it (unless you believe that existence IS dependent on our belief in it, which is another ball of wax entirely). The idea is likely why waste emotional energy worrying about it? And again, for others, the idea that there is no afterlife may be one that holds some appeal for them.

And the answer is, of course, that if one IS terrified by the thought that there is no afterlife, or by the thought that nothing we do ultimately matters (to who? to what? in what way?) one likely can't help it. People have different thresholds and prejudices. What one can accept, another cannot.

I like the notion that there's a God and an afterlife, but I can't say I honestly believe that there are. At least not all the time. In the past, when asked if I believe in God, I've said "I do, on a good day." That's probably not a satisfying answer to most people, but it's the one I've got.

edited 31st Aug '16 4:03:37 PM by Robbery

I think what's important is having a fulfilling life and making a positive impact on the people who are around you.

You're aware most people just can't lead fulfilling lives, don't you? At best they can delude themselves into thinking they can, because of their faith in those ulterior factors that most likely don't exist.

I swear, sometimes I can't help being kind of bugged by how 'more or less privileged Westerner with chances in life' the standard Internet viewpoint seems to be. Ask the vast majority of the people suffering in the Third World, the largest chunk of the world's population, if they think they could lead fulfilling lives even if they tried to, and to change the world, even their immediate surroundings, without their respective faiths to hold them on. I'm not saying that makes their faiths valid or true, but they at least serve as a placebo to distract them from the horrors surounding them. Go ahead, put yourselves in their shoes, in the shoes of people living under constant bombings, famine, dictatorships, terrorist attacks day in and day on. Then tell them their beliefs are false and they and their families will just stop existing forever after most likely suffering premature deaths, but it's okay because in the meanwhile they can... oh wait, they can't do as much to fulfill their dreams and aspirations as you can. Well, it sucks to be them, then.

Tell them there is no justice, no real reason behind human suffering. Tell them there is no reward, there is no payoff after all they went through because they just randomly happened to be born in circumstances worse than yours, surrounded by hundreds of factors beyond their ultimate control.

Well, yes. That's sort of an eventuality when most people conversing on forums and the like tend to live in places and be in situations where they can at least afford to use a computer and internet with presumably a few other luxuries. Not to say people in the third world don't have internet access and the like since that would be extremely clueless and elitist, but they still don't really comprise the majority of english-speaking communities anyways.

Obviously I am aware that not everyone has the same opportunities or chances (and for what it's worth, I live in Brazil which is far from the worst place in the world to live, but which has one of the highest wealth inequalities in the world). It's not exactly related to what I was trying to say, but in retrospect, what I WAS trying to say ("do what you can with what you're given") is not something I would ever say to someone in much worse conditions than me. Fair enough to point out that if one is born in extremely horrific circumstances something like a spiritual belief in an afterlife or supernatural justice is very comforting.

edited 31st Aug '16 6:12:49 PM by Draghinazzo

There's nothing to fear then. But now I can fear nonexistence. Fear of missing out on all sorts of stuff. Fear of not experiencing anything anymore. That this fear stops in the future does nothing to stop it now.

I swear, sometimes I can't help being kind of bugged by how 'more or less privileged Westerner with chances in life' the standard Internet viewpoint seems to be. Ask the vast majority of the people suffering in the Third World, the largest chunk of the world's population, if they think they could lead fulfilling lives even if they tried to, and to change the world, even their immediate surroundings, without their respective faiths to hold them on. I'm not saying that makes their faiths valid or true, but they at least serve as a placebo to distract them from the horrors surounding them. Go ahead, put yourselves in their shoes, in the shoes of people living under constant bombings, famine, dictatorships, terrorist attacks day in and day on.

And of course you're right. That's the purpose that faith serves, and it cuts in both directions. It helps people to cope with the difficulties and chaos of their lives, but in other cases it's been deliberately used to keep in power the people making their lives difficult ("the preacher likes the cold" as the song used to say). But no one here is telling the suffering people of the world that their faith is meaningless. They're telling it to the patrons on an internet forum. And they can only speak of their own beliefs, from their own experiences. You're not putting forth arguments for anything, only stating and restating that the idea that existence may end at death, while it may be true, offends you. I don't say this to pick on you, because I can understand how and why it does. Personally, I'd like to see a lot more civility and compassion in the public discussion of this topic on the part of non-believers, given how deeply held and felt a lot of peoples beliefs are, and a lot more tolerance and understanding on the part of believers for those who don't believe.

edited 31st Aug '16 10:07:41 PM by Robbery

My opinion feels like a bit of an odd one, in that it's not cessation of existence per se that terrifies me. Rather, it's my inability to truly imagine anything approaching infinite time scales. And this applies whether I'm thinking about a particular afterlife, or a complete lack of one.

This "faculty lot" you speak of sounds like a place of great power...

I'm not the only one here who's pointed out that people who don't fear death can still fear the circumstances surrounding it - including, of course, the damage it does to one's family and friends, as well as the pain involved in the process itself, in many cases. So we do think about and fear some aspects of the death process, but we don't fear dying itself, or "being dead".

There is no such thing as "making sense" in the absence of an entity to which things "make sense". If all life is extinct, there is no thought or emotion. To me that's fine. It doesn't matter. "Making sense" (or "meaning") is something that happens to us during our lives. The future can make sense and mean a lot to me even though I won't be there for it because the thought of it means a lot to me now. I don't expect to be there to witness it, even if I happen to accomplish something that makes it better for those that do make it.

As for the comforting aspect of faith, if you care about that more than you care about truth, go ahead. You didn't ask me, and we probably never even met, to begin with. If you're asking my opinion, though - which includes the implicit way to ask, by reading what I've written to an unspecific audience - I'll assume you want to think in ways that value truth above comfort. In that case, I'll just tell you that I don't believe in ultimate, supernatural justice, of an externally experienced "meaning" of life, or in a satisfying afterlife. There's simply no evidence for any of that, nor any reasonable theory in which such could exist.

Who knows, maybe some of the people who comfort themselves with faith would actually be more active in changing their society if they thought this life mattered more than the prospect of a next life. Now, obviously, I know that most people don't have that option anyway, regardless of their attitude. I'm talking only about people who are complacent because they believe they're going to Heaven (/equivalent).

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Yeah, one has to be careful and thoughtful when working out the implications of a life based on faith in something non-objective. Such faith is comforting, but that is not its purpose. Its purpose can only be to acknowledge the impact of something felt to be real. If one doesn't feel that, then one doesn't, and no amount of argument will change that.

I often reflect that the loss of something you have is more threatening than the thought of something you never had in the first place. A sense of transcosmic meaning, justice and love has been the foundation of my experience of life for as long as I can remember. It's the loss of that, not the cessation of breathing, that terrifies me so much. I don't want to cease existing because existence promises me a payoff beyond the physical. I want to finally receive what I have been hoping for all these long years. For there to be no afterlife literally means I lose God.

Obviously, if you have never felt any of that, then losing it won't bother you (even less if you have no idea what I'm talking about). We're up against the limits of reciprocal empathy here. But it is encouraging that we can discuss these differences rationally and respectfully, and come to understand each other better.

edited 1st Sep '16 4:23:45 AM by DeMarquis

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

I suppose mutual empathy comes easier for those who have been on both sides of this - adopting religion after growing up without it (I would argue that everyone who is religious has adopted it, as no one is born with it - but of course most religious people are brought up with it so they don't remember any transition into religion, as it was always the default for them) or being brought up religious but losing that faith (which is the case with the overwhelming majority of atheists).

I don't remember ever being genuinely religious. I was told the Jesus stuff as if it was true in the same way that generally accepted history is true, but I remember doubting it very early (as I did with Santa and so on). I can't really imagine what it would be like to feel the presence of some supernatural entity that cares about me, same as some people couldn't imagine life without it.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

I can. It happened to me once.

I was terrified of the end of the world and time and all that. Just like, how final it seemed. And these fears always showed up right when I was trying to sleep. Like, at night. It was the worst fear I have ever felt. This went on for bloody months. It was horrible.

I prayed to God for help, to help me understand and get over my fear. And immediately after I finished praying, and I do mean immediately, I felt this sense of peace. Just....beautiful, pure and immaculate peace. It felt wonderful. Beyond wonderful even. It spread throughout my body, and I just felt the fear slowly go away. I was growing in my Catholic faith at that time, and this experience was so powerful for me. I am sure I felt heaven. I have never felt that same sense of peace and tranquility since then, and yearn for the day I die, because I now know, that once I do, if I live my life the way God wants me to, I may experience that peace once again in heaven. I pray for those I feel need help, and hope they also experience the same peace I do. The peace of God's love.

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.

...I'm not sure how to respond to that.

I've also felt that sort of all-encompassing sense of peace and comfort at times. It's a brilliant feeling.

Once was when I was very seriously depressed; I was just trying to stop thinking those negative thoughts and suddenly I felt as if someone was in the room with me - but not in a creepy way. It felt very comforting, and for once I got a release from my depression. (IIRC this was a couple of days before I finally got medication and regular therapy sessions that eventually helped me overcome the depression).

I never ascribed that experience to anything supernatural - I think was just a mild hallucination, a sort of self-preservation mechanism triggered in my brain when I felt very threatened by myself and my solitude. I've had that sense of hope and safety a couple of times since, but never with any sensation of a presence. (I haven't regressed to my depression, so the other occasions have occurred in circumstances where I haven't been in a low from which I'd need to be lifted.)

These days the moments of complete calm and contentment tend to come when I'm trying to get to sleep, when one of our cats rubs his cheek against my arm before going to sleep between my legs. I think of the ways we're connected - I view us as family members and friends, and of course I also think about the fact that humans and cats are relatively close cousins as mammals - and I get this feeling that everything's as it should be.

I suppose one's bed is the safest and most comfortable place in the world, usually, and when you're relaxed and feel loved (I also usually have my girlfriend already asleep next to me, with our other cat sleeping on top of her) you'll tend to feel very happy.

These happy moments are not quite as intense as the one I described earlier, but I recognise it as basically the same feeling: the world is beautiful and I'm happy to be part of it, and everything is OK now and will be OK tomorrow.

Of course I can't tell if what I feel is the same as what you've experienced, but the description does seem similar. When it happened I thought that it must be similar to (or the same as) what people describe as a religious experience. As I said I think it's some kind of a psychological mechanism to release the mind from extreme stress or trauma. I suspect it can trigger more easily if one is sleep deprived or under the influence of drugs, but I'm not sure. (I've not really done any drugs other than alcohol, and I've never had any blissful experience drunk. I am usually very sleepy or downright sleep deprived when I get the most intense psychological phenomena, though - good or bad.)

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

This was something I have felt only once in my life, and I am sure it was God showing me what awaited me in heaven. I have grown in my faith, and hope to be able to reach out to others and help them feel that same peace I did. The feeling was something heavenly, and not some everyday thing. I am grateful for it, honestly. It made the moment more special.

On a more humorous note, I recently prayed to god to help me find somewhere I could watch Miraculous Ladybug. The next day, I found a You Tube channel with very good quality that has the almost the whole first season. God is pretty miraculous, eh?

There was also the time that we couldn't find the car keys, so I asked Saint Anthony for help. I looked down afterwards, and there were the keys, by my parents bed. It didn't matter much by that point, but hey, it was something

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.

Speaking as one believer to another, that may well have been coincidence. That first experience you described was very beautiful, however.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

That was more or less what my own experience of Christianity was like as well. Once I learned that the whole thing was based solely on faith, it fell apart within days. Once I got around to actually trying the faith thing for real, I found something else entirely. "Peaceful" is not how I'd describe it though.

Regarding cessation of existence, I'm not sure if fear is really the right word. I literally can't imagine what it would be like (since it wouldn't "be like" anything by definition), which just feels kind of weird. I'd still say that it beats a lot of the alternatives though. I don't want to die as long as there is something to live for, but knowing that I have the option would do wonders for my mental well being. Here in meatspace it's only a matter of time before entropy or bad luck start messing up my plans, and most afterlives I've been told about contain too much Nightmare Fuel for my liking.

edited 1st Sep '16 12:35:59 PM by Corvidae

Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.

It doesn't make much difference that you won't be around to mind. Since people have values that aren't about their subjective states. And Life won't stop mattering when it dies out. No one will ask the question anymore, but to the extent that you can define "does x have meaning" You can put a lifeless universe in for x just fine.

One of the hardest concepts to get most people to wrap their head around is that without the presence of intelligence, no value exists. There is no beauty without a mind capable of perceiving beauty. If one believes in a divine principle then that's the highest authority, but otherwise it's all a product of the mind of man.

I was reading the discussion and trying to put my thoughts in words, but you did it better with this part. thanks :)

My view is that I care about people and places and things, and not all of them are ones I have direct experience with. The thought of horrible things happening right now, some of them not very far away from me, bothers me even if I'll never meet the people involved. So similarly, I hate the idea of never knowing what will happen to the world after I die, even if I won't personlly suffer from not knowing.

At least for me it's not so much "hard to wrap my head around" as "doesn't help me make better sense of the world, so I don't focus on it". My values might not apply to a lifeless universe, because there wouldn't be anyone to act on those values, but it doesn't change the meaning they have for me now.

The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty: not knowing what comes next. - Ursula K. Le Guin

Yeah, but that's the point. The meanings things have for you aren't going to outlive you, let alone all life in the universe.

edited 4th Sep '16 1:38:13 AM by Elfive

Exactly. If there was something simple that wouldn't harm others that I could do to make life better for a nameless person in an unspecific country that will be born 100 years after I'm dead, I would do it. I would never have any experience of that person receiving the benefit of my action but if I knew in my life that it will make a difference that is all that will matter to me. That doesn't mean I would say my action will have value to me after I'm dead. It may not even have value for anyone, if no one knows I did it. (Well, other than the indirect value of the positive outcome of that action befalling that nameless person.)

Value is entirely subjective. We can conceptualise scenarios and events that we can't access directly - such as the future - and those conceptions can have value to us. Still, if we cease to be, that value also ceases to exist. Value cannot exist independently of the entity that attributes it.

It's not even an equal relation in both directions. I have a pet. I love my pet. If that pet was to die my love would still exist. If I was to die, though, even if the pet survived that love would be gone. Only the things I did as a result of that love - say, food I bought for the pet before I died, or the trust the pet has for people because I've (hopefully) treated it well - would continue to have an influence on the world. So for whichever value we hold, the object of that value can cease to exist and the value will still be experienced, but if we cease to exist, so will the value.

So that's my relation to everything in the universe.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

@Robbery I know value isn't an ontomologically basic thing. But that doesn't really matter much. A paper clip maximizer while it exists can calculate the utility of futures where it doesn't exists. It doesn't care at all that there will some day be no one to even label things as paperclips. It only cares how many actually end up existing.

Similarly I can notice that I won't get to do anything, if I don't exist, in the same way I can expect to be upset about something later. Both of these seem to me now as bad outcomes.

Regarding this topic, I have a book to recommend for you, it's called Book of Ecclesiastes. The author, like me, have questioned the meaning of life, neither me or him are certain about it, and we both have felt the emptiness of life, and the worry of afterlife. The more we know, the more Awful Truth we discover, it hammers my mind over and over again, pushing me to Despair Event Horizon, and I wept in a corner over and over again. But in the end, the author somehow managed to be braver than I thought. I wish there'll be an answer and a hope for us, and everyone we cared.

Believer or not, I recommend you to take a look at it, at least I'm certain that we're not alone.

Ecclesiates is a good one. I highly recommend Roger Zelazny's short story A Rose for Ecclesiastes, which provides a very acceptable and sensitive take on the meaning underlying the biblical story.

Another part of the Bible that will make you think (and question what faith in God actually means) is the book of Job. No pat answers there, just challenging questions.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

I know this is an old forum, but I felt like bringing up my thoughts on this concept because I've been thinking about it for a while.

As a 24-year-old man with his whole life ahead of him and so many things I have never managed to do, yes, Cessation of Existence scares me. It shakes me up, it worries me, it leaves me with the fear of how my life could be extinguished any moment and afterward there's nothing left. It's over. I have no mind left to experience anything. Yes. That frightens me.

However, and here's the really interesting thing...the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I'll most likely change my tune when I get old.

If I manage to live to my 80s or (if I'm lucky) my 90s, I'll have likely done everything I've wanted to do in my life. And if there's more I still want to do, it'll probably be too late by then because my health will likely be dwindling. By that time, I would hope I'm content enough in my life that the idea of it all just ending with nothing coming next may not seem so scary anymore. By then, it would probably feel like I'm settling in for a nice long dreamless nap after a very long and tiring day.

Its not the thought of going to sleep that scares me, its the thought of never waking up.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."