German Politics Thread

I know that the Daily Mail is not reliable. But that doesn't change the fact that it has considerably influence on public opinion, especially on the hard-core Brexiters.

Exactly.

The Bild is actually way more reliable than the Daily Mail, they exaggerate, but they usually are right (which is why the more reputable newspapers are in the habit of reporting it whenever the Bild has "breaking news" naturally with the note "that's what the Bild is saying). I don't bother with it, but my Grandfather, who was a very educated man, did. His reasoning was that just reading the reputable newspapers would only give him half of the story, and by reading the Bild he got a better sense of what the masses were thinking.

edited 6th Dec '17 1:35:09 PM by Swanpride

>Not really, no. Where are you getting this from?

Are you forgetting the ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE headline after the Supreme Court ruled that Parliament must get a say in Brexit?

Yeah if one wants the opinion of racist Brexit exstreamists the Daily Mail is pretty reliable, I think it’s reasonably possible that they will try and blame Brexit failing on sabatourge by Remain supporters.

Brexit cannot fail, it can only be failed, and all that.

edited 6th Dec '17 1:44:49 PM by Silasw

Hypocritical I know but perhaps this conversation ought to continue in the British Politics Thread.

So Schulz apparently wants, among other things, to form a United States of Europe.

Martin Schulz wants 'United States of Europe' within eight years

edited 7th Dec '17 8:59:31 PM by M84

Run with German ordoliberalism and no structural transfers?

Huh?

Get outta here, Schulz.

Good thing that Schulz is on borrowed time....

Dude was president of the European Parliament for five years and you're shocked at the idea that he has ambitions of greater federalization?

The whole idea is bugnuts crazy. There's no way in hell all 27 member states would ever agree to it. And they would all have to agree to it for this to even start.

Of course not.

But I do think it's a statement of intent, and Schulz' campaign was (perhaps too) Euro-focused, so it could at least hint at some of the concessions he wants out of the CDU to support a minority government or enter another Grand Coalition.

The big picture before negotiating grinds it down into something realistic. If you're gonna dream, dream big.

edited 8th Dec '17 2:21:52 AM by math792d

If I was in Germany, I wouldn't be willing to vote for him anymore after this (maybe Green now).

European countries have very different populations, languages and politics, no way trying to force it all together would work, nor would I want to be ruled by an anti-marriage equality politician, for example, because it's what "Europe wants", even though my country rejected them.

See, this would make me write in a ballot, because I'd much rather have national politicians engaging with the subject of European integration than have Jean-Claude Juncker and friends dictate the future of the Union.

Because that's been, in the words of the Bard, A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

I'm not saying this is a smart or even likely path to that integration. I'm saying I want European governments to be involved with that process, because ultimately it concerns all of us.

Maybe it's just that I grew up in the diet version of the UK where four successive right wing governments have flipped the EU the bird whike collecting all the benefits, but I think investment in the political future of the Union's a good thing.

edited 8th Dec '17 2:45:49 AM by math792d

You could have the national governments discuss this issue between them, but I don't think they would agree to much, nor do I think the future of the EU is a federal union.

I don't think the future is a federal union either, but mostly because it's difficult to create a union with a landmass that's going to be sinking into the sea within the next half-century and the inevitable resource wars.

But I like occasionally being optimistic.

edited 8th Dec '17 3:56:32 AM by math792d

I actually do think that Europe could eventually become one federal state. And why the hell not? In most future utopias there is some sort of world government which ensures that the whole population lives equally prosperous. I don't quite get why some people treat the idea as some sort of terrible thing or "The destruction of local culture". That's BS, if that were possible we would have pulled the leather trousers off the Bavarians a long time ago. And had a law against terrible folk music.

What concerns me is not the idea, it is speed and what the SPD is ready to give to reach that goal. The Speed is totally unrealistic, this is not a project you realize in a decade, that is something which has to grow over a century and so. And having Germany basically pay for everyone will destroy this project. Not because I feel egoistic, but because I think that it isn't good for the pride of any population if their cooperation is basically bought. The EU has to grow together as equals with everyone being on the same page. And yes, this will take time and we will only move in babysteps - and something not at all. But only then this can be a sustainable construct.

The SPD and people who think like them are in a way more dangerous than the anti-globalists, because they try to force something which has to grow over time.

As someone of Chinese descent, I will attest that trying to force progress via a "Great Leap Forward" can have horrible consequences.

No matter how big or strong you are, a Great Leap easily becomes a Great Stumble at best, especially when you can't see perfectly in front of you and/or lack coordination. Often, it can become a Great Faceplant. At worst, it can be a Great Drop. Wile E. Coyote style.

edited 8th Dec '17 9:36:09 AM by TheHandle

It is trying to homogeneise a mix of different substances, with smaller local groups not having a voice as a consequence. And it would kind of destroy some of the unique culture of each country to try to adapt all the political systems into one standardized blob.

To be frank, foreign media and big business cooperation's do way more to "destroy" a culture than a democratic political system ever does or could. Plus, culture isn't stagnant. It grows and it changes. To beware it is in our own hands.

For once I agree with Swanpride. The abandonment of little regional quirks in favor of a general standards is simply more efficient and makes it easier to create and generate all kinds of new cultural wealth.

Giving local elements a voice at all level and maintaining thorough accountability, however, that shit is crucial.

I agree. Hence a federal construct. It's sometimes annoying, but works in many countries, including Germany.

But as I said, rushing this would be fatal. This has to develop naturally.

I don't think that regional quirks and separate cultures are bad, it's something that makes each country unique, and until we encounter new alien civilisations and need to have just one representative body for Earth, I don't see the need to try and get rid of any of that.

Eh.. The future of politics is deeply unknowable. A federal europe looks unthinkable today, sure, but there is an extremely long list of things that were unthinkable, becoming inevitable five years later. Sometimes even without any wars as triggering catalysts.