Gay marriage in Britain

We have our "Gay rights in America" thread, so I thought it might be necessary to create this one to avoid a derail in that one. I'm creating it primarily for two reasons:

1) It is the aim of the current government to legalise full gay marriage before the next general election;

2) tropers of other countries may not be aware of the status of gay marriage rights in Britain, nor of political and religious attitudes towards said rights in this country.

(I don't want to post it in the British Politics thread because that's a more general discussion of British politics; I think this deserves its own conversation)

David Cameron, our current Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party, has made it clear that he wishes to see gay rights legalised under the current coalition government (which consists of a majority of Tories and a minority of Liberal Democrats). This would build upon the civil unions that were introduced by the previous Labour government. What is interesting, particularly in the light of the likes of Rick Santorum currently campaigning in America on a "true conservative" footing, is that Cameron wishes to see gay marriage legalised not in spite of being a Conservative, but because he is a Conservative (roughly paraphrased from the man himself). Which is certainly an...interesting spin on it. This is not to say that there isn't opposition in the Tory party - there certainly is (and probably among Labour too to a lesser extent), with around 100 Tory MPs currently threatening to rebel over it.

As far as the other parties go, broad support can be expected from Labour and the Liberal Democrats (indeed, the presence of the Liberal Democrats probably made it easier, as Cameron didn't need to purely sell it to Tory MPs). So from a political point of view, there proportionally isn't too much opposition.

The main opposition to its proposed legalisation is mostly coming from the Churches. Here's another big difference between the United States and the United Kingdom: the former has seperation of church and state, whereas the latter emphatically has not. England has a state church in the shape of the Church of England, although the other countries in the Union - Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - technically do not*

, and 26 bishops of the Church of England serve in the House of Lords as the Lords Spiritual. So religious opposition is actually more of a big deal here. Needless to say, gay marriage is causing quite the furore in religious circles at the moment, despite the fact that in the event of it being legalised it'll be at the discretion of the various Churches as to whether or not they provide gay marriages.

So...discuss!

edited 12th Mar '12 11:34:58 AM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Awesome. It's nice to see actual progress on the issue being made somewhere. We have a number of openly gay politicians, but gay marriage legistlation won't be seen for a while.

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.

Well, here's the thing: Britain's record on gay rights has improved with unbelievable speed, as it used to be quite atrocious not so very long ago (Section 28 was only repealed in 2003, for example). It's actually hard to believe that this could, and hopefully probably will, happen. I for one certainly can't believe that we're closer that most of the rest of Europe to getting it fully legalised.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

I certainly can't believe it's happening under a Conservative government. That said, Cameron has always been a reformist Tory who has been at the left side of his party for ages (ironically, the deputy PM Nick Clegg has been on the right hand side of our main left wing party).

The situation with church and state in the UK and US is essentially opposite. It's not really relevant to this thread, but it's worth noting that in the US, offically church and state are separate but in practice the lobbying of the religious right is hugely powerful and influential. In the UK, they're officially not separated (the Church of England, which is the Anglican protestant movement set up by Henry VIII when he said "fuck you" to the Pope, has the Queen as its head of state - which is why a Catholic can't actually become a reigning monarch here) but in practice the religious right has little to no meaningful influence. The COE is losing power and the country is, de facto, secular without actually officially admitting to it. This effect is even more apparant in Scotland and Wales, both of which are much more left wing in general political terms than England.

As such, the Church likes to make a big noise when one of the few areas it still holds strong influence on comes up for debate. Though they don't actually have a strong influence when it comes to gay marriage here anymore, as people have predominantly wisened the fuck up and realised that it's not an issue that affects them directly. The cardinals and archbishops put on the performance, but really, they're just clamouring for attention in an era that no longer considers them relevant. Dozens if not hundreds of churches are closing every year because the congregations just aren't there. The things taught there are seen as out-dated, and clinging to archaic views on social ethics typifies that.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

That's putting it lightly. We're the most LGBT-friendly state in the EU, due to our (incredibly) tough equality legislation, allowing of gays to serve in the army, gay adoption being promoted by local authorities, allowing them to donate blood, and recognising pre-op genders. We're probably only second to Canada in world rankings.

Now, considering this is being passed by our centre-right party, it's a feat. Other centre-right parties in Europe aren't so pro-LGBT.

Now, this Bill will pass, no doubt about it. There's too much support in both houses.

However, the Church appears to be fighting a losing battle (with the Express and Mail on its side) here. It's just trying to grasp at something, to show it's relevant in today's Britain. Bear in mind, the Gay Marriages Bill allows religious institutions to do same-sex marriages if they wish. It's not legally-mandated as a Clause.

edited 12th Mar '12 1:50:49 PM by Inhopelessguy

Seems to me that the most religious noise is coming from the Catholic church in Britain. The Church of England, as an organisation, has a problem that there are plenty within it who would perform a homosexual marriage ceremony and those who would froth at the mouth at that and it's also technically part of the same organisation as the Church of Uganda. The Co E is an organisation that will oppose this but opts for the strongly worded letter over the placard.

The church isn't really a factor in whether this will happen except for whether they can incite rebellion in Tory backbenchers and it has to be open "Ah, this makes us so angry" rebellion, not just "we can't in good conscience vote for this" rebellion because Cameron doesn't need a three line whip for this to pass. He managed to control the process for candidates enough that all the new M Ps are under his thumb (which is about a third of them in his party) and the two other parties are for it. Everyone else can just stay at home.

I'd have to agree with everyone else here.

The law will get through, no question about it. Being LGBT is no issue here — it's more of a private, "nothing to see here" sort of thing these days, really. Same with Religion, which is not Politicised here either, and no religion has any Poltical power here anyway, not for a long time.

In fact, it's not even much of a News Story — Gay Marriage? More important things to worry about...

...which means they have quite similar views — and they do, otherwise the Coalition wouldn't have been formed in the first place.

Keep Rolling On

David Cameron always stuck me as level headed if unimaginative Prime mister -for a tory-. Not that I pay much attention to british politics.

edited 18th Mar '12 3:36:36 AM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

@ Green. Basically, nobody gives a crap about what you do, as long as you pay taxes and contribute to society. And that's Britain's attitude to anything, in a nutshell.

Indeed. A "new age of consensus", I believe. Granted, not as close as post-war Britain, but still damn close.

Yep, that's about right*

— as long as you don't rock the boat too much...

edited 13th Mar '12 12:14:51 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On

The Scottish Government intend to make it legal. The only people complaining are the Catholic church and nobody really gives a shit what they say these days. They've been utterly irrelevent in this country since 1745.

'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'

I was about to same the same thing about scotland

Anyway gay marriage in the UK is pretty much a done deal, there's is no major religious right blocking it. It's a just a matter of geting the numbers up.

edited 13th Mar '12 12:56:03 AM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

With many individual church congregations approving of gay marriage, as well as the whole of the Quaker movement it looks like there should be no trouble getting a gay marriage anywhere in the UK unless you really want it to be a specific denomination or church. Opinion polls seem to indicate a general approval of same sex marriages too. Top stuff!

Well that's fine and dandy then

Should I launch a thread about gay marriage in my home country of Australia or has everything that can been said about the issue already been said?

hashtagsarestupid

Is there anything unusual about the status of gay marriage in Australia? If so, yes :) I'm seeing in Wikipedia that cohabitation is equal between straight and gay, civil partnerships are allowed in the eastern bits but gay marriage is still unrecognised.

Go for it if you think it's worth discussion.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

well legally it's a lot like the UK only the present PM isn't willing to stick her neck out and risk losing popular support. Most people I know are for it, but that's inner city bias for you.

There was some huha when the opposition ran a blatantly homophobic ad recently that might be worth talking about, but I don't like posting 'rage at the conservatives' threads.

hashtagsarestupid

That's a negatory.

hashtagsarestupid

What ad was that?

Be not afraid...

Bob Katter's australian party ran an overtly homophobic ad attacking the LNP leader for supporting gay marriage.

he's the ABC new report on it, if you're interested.

edited 18th Mar '12 4:07:29 AM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

It seems that Gay Marriage Act is driving a wedge between the religious groups of the UK and the Government and between each other.

Dutch Lesbian

Also, English weather tends to be a bit on the damp side.

What's precedent ever done for us?

I forget, did the UK courts rule that foreign gay marriage was legal or not? I remember there being a lot of huff and puff over a British couple that married in Canada.

The High Court of Justice rejected a legal bid by that couple to have their Canadian marriage recognised as a marriage and not a civil union in the UK, according to Wikipedia.

Cited BBC article

edited 31st Mar '12 2:14:31 AM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

I wouldn't make sense to recognise same sex marriage unions from countries while not doing so from your own country.

edited 31st Mar '12 2:51:33 AM by joeyjojo

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