Making In-Universe and Rename (new crowner 3/28): Garfunkel

Oooh, now that's a great option. I'm convinced to switch my vote to push it higher.

I find there are a lot of YMMV tropes that would do better to be turned into In-Universe only.

The In-Universe option sounds good, but it would be better if a few In-Universe examples can be gathered, at least before the crowner is called, just to confirm that we can actually have examples for such a thing (On that front, I think there was once a Cutaway Gag on Family Guy once about Matt Damon finishing the screenplay for Good Will Hunting and Ben Affleck requesting a shared writing credit, even though it's apparent that he didn't contribute much to the screenplay—if anyone can confirm that).

I'd also push for a slight tweak to the In-Universe definition—"someone gets billing/credit equal to someone else but has done little (if anything) to show that they earned it."

edited 14th Mar '12 1:55:05 PM by SeanMurrayI

No, this is deserving recognition, and not getting it. You're suggesting the inverse, which is a separate trope.

This trope, to the core, is: "Character that receives equal billing but is incidental to the point of irrelevance."

If they get equal billing and contribute just as much on the work, but no one is aware of them outside of the billing, it's not this trope. "The opposite of this, where a character makes an equal (or, at least, necessary) contribution, but remains obscure or overlooked, is Stuck in Their Shadow."

EDIT: Here's the oldest version of the trope I could find on web.archive.org. It looks like this was intended for fictional characters from the beginning, as the description implies in its use of "character". I imagine all the music-focus is Trope Decay caused by the current music-focused name.

edited 14th Mar '12 2:59:05 PM by MangaManiac

Given the context of that old description you found, it appears to be mistaking "incidental" for simply being the Straight Man in a comedy pairing. Two of the characters named are even listed in the examples for that trope.

The only one that doesn't quite fit that is Turner of Turner & Hooch, but the dog Hooch is supposed to get more attention than Tom Hanks, anyway. That's the whole reason why "never work with animals and children" is always spoken as a "rule" for actors; if an animal or child is behaving exactly as a filmmaker wants them to be on set, then they can steal scenes and get more attention than the adult actors or otherwise overshadow them.

edited 14th Mar '12 4:52:57 PM by SeanMurrayI

Even if the early examples are a bit shoehorned, the point still stands that the music examples came later. This is not, and was never intended to be, a Music Trope.

On actual examples of fictional characters: while I can't comment on those examples as I don't watch the shows, I do remember Cable & Deadpool. Deadpool was focused on a lot more, IIRC, and in some issues Cable would basically just appear at the beginning. I can't speak for all of the issues, though.

Even that wouldn't so much be an observation of the trope occurring In-Universe as it is just one of us making an observation of a work itself.

And although I've never read their series, I'd be will to wager that Cable & Deadpool is yet another pairing of a Straight Man with a Comic. Of course, Deadpool is going to be the one that gets more attention; he's the one that's given the punchlines and all the outlandish comedy bits that people remember more than their setups.

edited 15th Mar '12 10:30:32 AM by SeanMurrayI

Yes, he's more silly.

But, just because he's silly, doesn't stop him from being more important. Sometimes the one with the biggest role is the one that's more easily remembered.

Being more easily remembered =/= Being more important. Certainly, being the one to get the memorable punchline doesn't make one more important than the one who sets it up.

Anyway, everything we're basing this on now is just Straight Man; in fact, it can even be tied to the page quote appearing on that trope page about actors/characters in such a role not being given enough credit.

Greg, Mindy, Turner, Cable... Suddenly we're just looking to give them a page where they don't get enough credit.

edited 15th Mar '12 11:06:11 AM by SeanMurrayI

No, he is both more important and more rememberable. They're not mutually exclusive IIRC, they even cut Cable's role down in some due to the X Men or something. I'm not really sure, I don't keep up with comics.

And, again, that still wouldn't be an acceptable example, anyway, if we're going to be looking to make this about an In-Universe occurrence.

The way you're explaining the situation with Cable is just your response to the character and work itself, which is what has already made this trope page such a problem in the first place, and it's every bit as argumentative as the examples already on the page. The fact that we're arguing over Cable's validity right now shows that.

edited 15th Mar '12 11:29:05 AM by SeanMurrayI

In response to your last line: You've already said you haven't read the series. You're just judging this on the basis that Deadpool is sillier. If you had read it, and judged that they had the same role but Deadpool was more rememberable, that'd be proof.

edited 15th Mar '12 11:39:18 AM by MangaManiac

You shouldn't have to make this about me. I'm not making this about you and your confession that you're "not really sure" yourself, either, and admittedly "don't follow comics".

There are more important things at hand, namely—for the third time now—that you're not outlining an In-Universe occurrence but just making your own observation about a work. We are actively seeking to avoid having examples like that on the page now.

edited 15th Mar '12 11:46:03 AM by SeanMurrayI

You're the one saying he's not an example. It's pretty much about both of us until someone else steps in and agrees with either of us, or either of us brings in conclusive proof.

Also, if we're making it In-Universe, and not about characters like I'd imagined, I'd like some examples. I take it that would be where it's outright discussed then?

For the fourth time... It wouldn't be an example because because it wouldn't be In-Universe—just the outlook and opinion of an individual's reception of a work/character/Straight Man.

And I already provided an In-Universe example in another post.

Look, you asked for examples, and I provided just that twice. Deal with it.

edited 15th Mar '12 11:56:35 AM by SeanMurrayI

I'd like some more examples, I mean.

Also, we haven't made it In-Universe yet.

EDIT: For the record, I was providing Deadpool and Cable as examples of the original trope as it was written. I was not suggesting them as this In-Universe thing like Family Guy. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

One example does not a trope make.

edited 15th Mar '12 11:58:07 AM by MangaManiac

The music variant does seem tropeworthy. There are countless jokes about Garfunkel being the lesser known of the duo, and it can be pretty egregious in a lot of groups — for instance, Brooks And Dunn.

Bumping. This needs more votes - and more consensus.

I'd just as soon cut it, but given the way the numbers are running, I'm changing my down vote on the leading option to an up vote just to make it more likely that something will be done to change the page from its current state.

So far, no one's offered a good reason on why cutting it is better than making it In-Universe examples only.

What are some in-universe examples? Enough to justify a page? It seems like all the current examples, even the ones in other media, are not in-universe.

So why are we making this in-universe? Because you guys don't want to spend 2 minutes cleaning up the example section (which doesn't even have much complaining in it)?

edited 22nd Mar '12 1:10:12 PM by abk0100

For the record, earlier in this thread I cleaned out the examples section from all the Natter.

It's not about that alone.