The Mary Sue Phase

This is the first time I've ever posted on Troperville, so please don't kill me.

Today, I posted a story on Fanfiction.net - I won't say where, and it was decried quite quickly by two Anonymous Reviewers pointing out that my characters were quite obvious Mary Sues.

And, I agree. No, that's not the big shocker. The big shocker is that I think most writers go through such a thing. Where they don't really understand that having a character who escapes major consequences yet has incredible skills, and without valid reasons for either. I'm not saying I'm through this phase, but I do follow quite a few writers; Patrick Rothfuss, Peter V.Brett and Joe Abercrombie being the most notable, and they all seemed to have a similar point where they wrote very Mary Sue-ish characters.

I'm not going to go into details, but looking at the chapter, the fact I felt I immediately had to add a chapter where Mary Sue got the living sh*t kicked out of him IS NOT a good sign. But, I'm direly hoping, that this is something that is a little more common than is admitted to. For my part, I am NOT an experienced writer. Hell, I'm not an experienced human being. But I am a Troper, been mincing around here and there for three years, and I thought that would somehow protect me from Mary Sue. No, I thought, I will deconstruct the War Hero, and the Kid Hero! Badass and Child duo, I spat, pah!

Then I go and make an injured old soldier who still gets on well with people and escapes consequences for nearly murdering a child. And when someone called me out on it, I lost muse, confidence, and basically the belief in my own penmanship.

I guess I feel comfortable putting this here as I've seen alot of great things of Troperville. If this is just some bullsh*t that I'm just trying to make up to validate my own insecurity, then please, call me out. But maybe I've got a point.

Or maybe I'm just a shitty writer. Or maybe this is neither the place nor the way in which to phrase these thoughts, and I need to see a shrink.

Either way.

If they gave you reasons why and explained their reasons, I might take them seriously but if they were just "Mary Sue you suck" I would ignore them.

If you want pointers I could read over your fic? I like to think I'm fairly decent at telling whether characters are Sues. Also I understand the whole "Mary Sue" fear. I get that every time I take a Sue test.

You need to get feedback from people outside the internet.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

At least as far as the idea of a "Mary Sue Phase" - no, I don't believe every author goes through one. However, every author does go through a learning period full of mistakes; those mistakes might not be the same for everyone, but there's no way to avoid making them altogether. So if you're asking whether this means you're a bad writer, the answer is no. In fact, the fact that you're asking this in the first place at least places you a step above the very worst of the lot.

That's... really, really easier said then done.

Ask yourself 'Why is this a Mary Sue'. Is the Hero too damn perfect - that's really the only thing that you should be careful of.

I'm wary of how easy a character can be called a M-S. Where does it stop? James Bond? Cool, dresses well, hard as nails, good with women, was written by a former intelligence officer. Mary Sue?

Mal from Firefly - who wouldn't want to be Mal? (Me; I want to be Wash. There is NO Big Goddam Movie, ok. Everything is shiny.)

Luke Skywalker - an everyman who get a laser sword and magic powers!

Hermione Granger?

The problem is Heroes are by their very nature heroic, and something people want to imagine themselves being. Writers included.

edited 26th Feb '12 4:41:51 PM by LastHussar

I went through a particularly severe Mary Sue phase, thanks to the overactive imagination I had as an elementary schooler. But, as nrjxll said, being aware of it is a good sign. I wasn't for a few years and thought my Sues were the greatest characters ever. -shakes head-

But the good people of Writer's Block here can't really help you unless we see what's going on in this fic, as potentially embarrassing as you might find it.

Depending on what you're writing about, doing this could either be a good way to get criticism or scare people away and kill your reputation.

edited 26th Feb '12 5:09:11 PM by CrystalGlacia

I don't think there's a "mary sue phase" that all writers are bound to experience and grow past, but I wouldn't stress over the occasional possible misstep.

I would, however, probably abandon that mindset entirely, if you haven't already. Besides the fact that slapping tropes together does not a compelling character make, I'm not surprised that it'd exacerbate the blows of what criticism you do receive.

But I agree that it's good you're asking this instead of just dismissing the reviewers' complaints outright. Don't get discouraged either. :) No matter how good you might be, there's always going to be room for improvement!

The Mary Sue phase does seem to be a common part of the standard developmental model for internet writers, but it certainly doesn't happen to everyone. However, while not everyone experiences a Mary Sue phase specifically, I do think it's important to note that every writer will have a period of early mistakes, and there's no getting around this.

x4 Don't forget to add Indiana Jones and The Doctor to that list. Too say nothing of almost every Anime/Manga and Videogame character in existence.

All I have to say is focus on making your character likable, make them have a personality instead of making them walking plot-devices.

Fair enough. If that doesn't work out, he should at least try to get criticism at some place more serious about writing than fanfiction dot net. Really, I can't think of a worse place to get criticism from.

There are places on the Net where you can get adequate criticism. FF.net is really not one of them.

Regarding the 'Mary Sue phase'; I kind of had one, but got over it quickly. I wouldn't say it's a universal step, but certainly a common failure mode.

That, I do agree with.

I do think that a lot of people have a phase where they prefer perfect heroes who have no personal flaws and make no mistakes; not just in their own writing, but in the books they read as well. (I suspect it may be part of a larger complex of wanting a story to fulfil a predictable pattern, rather than breaking new ground: when you listen to fairytales as a kid, you know right away that the youngest brother will marry the princess, that the knight on the white horse will win the tournament, etc. etc.)

So, yeah, it's probably a stage in your development. No shame in it, as long as you (the general "you") don't stay there for the rest of your life.

@Rynec at 9

They were the first ones - we could add loads, as you point out.

Biggest one of all 'Superman' !

I wouldn't count video game characters - they are the players' avatars, you want to be perfect.

My quick and easy litmus test for a Mary Sue is if they change as much as they change the world. If they are a juggernaut of social and physical change, you're going to have to walk uphill to make a decent movie, and if you have a character who completely breaks down in the face of the big wide world, that's kinda nihilistic. You have to hit it somewhere in the middle, and something like a Suetiful All Along reveal won't cut it, since it's just giving them a moral justification rather than changing anything.

Well said!

Thanks for all the replies, guys. Fanfiction.net is basically the only place I know to put writings up of any kind' any suggestions for good sites are more than welcome.

I see what you mean by 'M-S' being, if not hard to define, then atleast too easily applied. One thing I've started to think about is a Hero who ISN'T inherently heroic. Who is only likeable because of a few features; but that's easy to slip into slightly iffy territory.

I think The Web Wanderer makes a very good point on defining a MS. I've seen several characters in very gritty novels who have been strong, powerful and not at all very flawed; but they aren't world-movers, nor are they destroyed by events around them. A good example of this might be Davos Seaworth, though it's entirely debatable.

It seems to me that the MS Phase is a possibility for alot of people; it might happen far more in people who want to escape reality than anything else. I can only speak from personal experience, but that is certainly the reason I initially got into writing, though it's no longer the reason I continue. This idea that you can create a character for whom everything works out is incredibly tempting; s/he can slay the dragons that represent your personal battles, or they can shrug off the insults that sting you. Or maybe a MS is something a few fall into in order to advance the plot; they have such a great idea in their head - a totally badass battle of ultimate destiny - but they want the Hero to not only win, but come out with a happy ending. Inadvertently, they find themselves rolling the character forward without really taking the time to go over the effects of their actions.

Both of these 'theories' can, I think, be easily passed through. Well, I hope they can, as I have no intention of ever writing a character which could have the title 'Mary Sue'.

I would like to outline the original character concept, so you guys can help out, but I'm not sure where I could do that.

Outline a character concept? You might be able to do it in this thread while everyone's here.

You could post it at the "Post your concept" thread — or, like suggested, you could just post it here.

A word of caution, though: The subject of concepts is... somewhat loaded around these parts. I'm kind of jaded with them, and I suspect I'm not alone. We're all very excited here about the wonderful worlds we want to build and the wonderful themes we want to incorporate, so much so that if we're not careful we end up excitedly talking about them forever, and never writing down a single word of actual prose, like some kind of insane cautionary fairy tale minus the part where we all gradually turn into donkeys.

People might have a thing or two to say about your concept, but the only way to get some real criticism is to get your hands dirty and do some real writing. That's the difficult part, but it's also the worthwhile part.

edited 27th Feb '12 2:16:30 PM by TripleElation

Exactly. As much as I hate to say it, and I'm one of these people, I can't call you a writer unless you've at least completed one of your projects. I'm working towards that, but just because you conceptualize doesn't mean you create. Produce something tangible, and I'll call you a writer. It's that willingness to put effort and manhours into the profession that differentiates one from the masses.

<—- By God, that is useful.

Anyway, I completely understand what you're all saying. It's all very well and good to have a character concept you think is brilliant, perfect, and shines out bright, but it's rather likely that when it comes to writing that concept, you fall flat on your face because s/he simply isn't fun. It's the general idea of it being entirely hyperbole.

And, being honest, I'm not great with that. Pyroninja makes a good point in that putting pen to paper, metaphorically, and simply pumping out the content is just as important as having that great idea. It's the reason I prefer Joe Abercrombie to G.R.R.Martin - Joe pumps out a novel, consistently, every one or two years. The Big G? Not so much.