Ambiguous Name: The John Henry

Just look at all these pages...

The names "John" and "Henry" are both exceedingly common, so I have no idea which one in particular is meant. According to That Other Wiki, there are at least twenty famous people by that name, including several U.S. politicians, two major league players, a historian and a sculptor.

More importantly, this is the name of a psychological effect John Henryism, which is unrelated; of two different fictional characters from Transformers and Terminator, both of which unrelated; and it shares the name of a work, i.e. an album by They Might Be Giants.

Finally, it has 21 wicks, 5 inbounds. This name isn't working and we should change it.

I get the concept but I'm racking my brain trying to come up with a better name.

On a side note, does that MLP example even fit?

Uhh no clue what this is really, and the examples are no help.

Based on the title alone I would have said Two First Names or something.

edited 24th Feb '12 3:29:40 PM by Raso

You guys really have never heard of the folksong John Henry? Are you like not from America? 'Cuz I though this was one of those things every American kid was forced to sing in school. The "John Henryism" that Spark9 linked is indeed related, it's named for him.

But if it is really that obscure to people, perhaps we need to rename.

No, actually John Henryism is related. Quoting from the article you linked: His name, John Henry Martin, and his circumstances are evocative of folk hero John Henry, an African American who worked vigorously enough to compete successfully with a steam powered machine, but died as a result of his effort.

Also, there is no way you can make the claim the "John Henryism" is better known than the character John Henry.

"Are you like not from America?"

That's pretty much the only excuse I can think of for not knowing who John Henry is. Granted we do have an international user base.

"two different fictional characters from Transformers and Terminator"

The Transformers characters is this John Henry. See here: John Henry was a steel-driving man in the 19th century, noted for being one of the best in the country (if not the world). He was highly respected by his fellow railmen, not to mention the Autobots.

edited 24th Feb '12 3:41:19 PM by Catbert

This really doesn't seem to be a character trope. It's about situations when low-tech solutions beat high-tech ones. Very few of the examples are about the characters involved.

If we want a page about homages to the John Henry story, we could have that, but only a few of the examples would qualify.

No, it is very much a character trope.

Yeah, going by the description, it's "This is Science Is Useless and Ludd Was Right condensed into a character."

A valid page, but with a bad name.

Also, I just thought of a name. Simplistic Utilitarian.

edited 24th Feb '12 3:47:13 PM by KaiserMazoku

It could be. But as is, it isn't. For characters, we have the homages to John Henry, we have Rocky, Zorro, Monk... but many examples aren't focused on any character, or the character just does this as a one-off thing. We could clean out the bad example, if we agree these other examples are bad.

edited 24th Feb '12 3:46:34 PM by Routerie

I strongly doubt that all Americans nationwide were instructed to sing this particular song (as opposed to hundreds of other folk songs) in school. For one, that would highly depend on which state or ethnicity you're from, and probably generation as well. Of course it'd be meaningless to non-Americans.

And, well, there are over 100 other famous John Henries...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry - The most notable use of the name John Henry is in a ballad, "John Henry", describing the folk figure John Henry as a "steel-driving man".

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1DVCP_enUS415US415&ix=seb&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=John+Henry

First and third hit is steel driving man.

You know, I'm really, really loosing patience with people that want to make arguments based on alleged obscurity. "I never heard of him" is just a statement about a person's own ignorance, not about how well something is working as a trope title.

Demonstrate misuse.

edited 24th Feb '12 4:23:17 PM by Catbert

Do quote the entire page. "John Henry may also refer to" followed by a loooooong list of names.

If Wikipedia truly believed that one name was clearly the most prominent, then "John Henry" would be the article on that person, rather than a big disambiguation page. For example, Paris points directly to the capital of France, not to the disambig listing dozens of other things named Paris.

Also, I've already demonstrated disuse. A trope name with five inbounds clearly isn't working.

edited 24th Feb '12 4:08:37 PM by Spark9

Clearly we need to rename fiction because it has only 6 inbounds.

Nature Documentary has only 4 inbounds and 19 wicks.

Non Fiction Literature has a woping total of 1 inbound. Clearly the name isn't working.

Some pages just don't cover things that are all that common, sexy or likely to attract the attention of the fandoms that dominate this website.

edited 24th Feb '12 4:22:26 PM by Catbert

I don't want to see a precedent where we decide whether to rename something on the basis of the way The Other Wiki handles redirect pages. O_o

I'm not American, but I've heard the legend of John Henry.

The number of wicks isn't huge, but does qualify it as a "standing" trope, with the minimum healthy level. I'd like to see a misuse analysis. If there isn't misuse, then maybe a bit of careful entry-pimping is the best solution, and might also spread awareness of this trope. Not having lots of inbounds by itself does not convince me, for one, that a rename is needed.

Renames should always be treated as a last resort. Which I think is a principle that many people on the TRS don't seem to care about very much, but that's the way it should be.

edited 24th Feb '12 4:38:24 PM by girlyboy

I already addressed the Transformers character and John Henryism. I'd like to address the other things you pointed out.

Terminator: John Henry, portrayed initially by computer... He is named John Henry by his psychologist, Dr. Boyd Sherman, after the mythical steel driving John Henry of American folklore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_(album) - John Henry is the name of They Might Be Giants' fifth original album, although it is the sixth disc in their discography. It was released in 1994. It is the first album in which John Linnell and John Flansburgh utilized a full band, as opposed to playing most or all of the instruments themselves. The album's name, a reference to the man vs. machine fable of John Henry.

So, in summary, the things that you picked as being the most prominent examples of the use of the name "John Henry" to demonstrate that this has connections unrelated to the character of folklore are not unrelated but are directly related to the character and the man-vs-machine nature of this trope.

I'd be very interested in knowing if you can demonstrate that this trope is being used in a way that indicates it is being confused with any of the other John Henry's in the world.

edited 24th Feb '12 5:19:12 PM by Catbert

I would have expected "The Ballad of John Henry" to be pretty famous, at least in America, because there was a cartoon version of it floating around for decades. To help remedy the situation, I figured I'd better post the Smothers Brothers' version of the ballad.

In any case, not all Tropers are American, AND there's been a recent trend of moving away from character-named tropes, even those with popular names. Those two points could contribute to the argument in favor of renaming.

Also, the character is as famous for being The Determinator as the man vs. tech thing. I don't think he was actually a Ludite so much as someone so proud he wouldn't be beaten by a machine. He's also remembered for a Pyrrhic Victory. Even if you know the character, the thing we're troping isn't his most notable trait. It's just one of many tropable traits.

I'm having a hard time believing that anyone is going to think this is about a different John Henry. There are plenty of people named Elvis, but nobody thinks Elvis Impersonator is referring to Elvis Costello.

edited 24th Feb '12 5:59:41 PM by troacctid

"He laid down his hammer and he died..."

The name is fine and should be kept.

The idea that everyone would know this name confuses me. I had no clue who this is. It just looks like two random common names mishmashed together. The userbase is not strictly American. 21 wicks and 6 inbounds isn't very good, either.

edited 25th Feb '12 5:28:10 AM by lu127

I have absolutely no idea who this person is. And 5 inbounds and 21 wicks are not OK.

I don't see that as being a requirement.

Next step, renaming Non-Fiction Literature.

edited 25th Feb '12 5:49:37 AM by Catbert

Non-Fiction Literature is not a concept anyone would want a link to this website to understand. They can see it in wikipedia easily explained. It's not a trope. This page is.

Second, this name fails on at least two points: It's neither clear nor witty.

Also, Non-Fiction Literature is an index and Exactly What It Says on the Tin. Not sure how many inbounds we expect for such a page, but tropes need more than that.

There are thousands upon thousands of tropes on this website. Not all are going to have lots of inbounds. A rename isn't going to make a difference with this page.

Demonstrate it is being confused with some other John Henry. Demonstrate the current usage is incorrect.

edited 25th Feb '12 6:44:23 AM by Catbert