"Sexist superhero costumes" from Cracked

[text moved to earlier post]

edited 16th Aug '12 9:41:07 AM by Karalora

Well, the point was that "male culture" focuses on T&A. Now how representative that is of what people actually want or desire can surely be debated (I'm torn on the matter myself), including if it's proscriptive or prescriptive.

But it is what it is...I do see it changing, but things are generally slow to change.

I should say that I'm really not a fan of Western superhero design in general, as I think by and large it's mostly uninspired and dull. So maybe I do think that it's a problem because in most cases the traditional tight body-suit has so little character that it IS objectifying. Hmmm. that's an interesting way to look at things. I'll have to mull that over.

Edit: Yes, that dissonance is also a huge problem.

edited 16th Aug '12 9:42:19 AM by Karmakin

Nail hit on head.

EDIT: Also, what I was getting at in my Wall of Text is that if you make a character too sexy, it will be the first thing anyone thinks about. Again, does anyone here care how much of a Badass Vampirella is? How about Tarot? Or Lady Death?

After you cross a certain line, the sexiness becomes their dominant characterization.

edited 16th Aug '12 9:54:37 AM by KingZeal

Good framing, Karalora. "Action hero" is implicitly understood to be a "guy thing", and the males characters are adapted well for it, while the female characters... aren't.

Hmm... I guess in that sense, the fabled "just as exploitative of males!" media would rather be something like... a home cooking show with an allegedly balanced cast, except the female chefs are varied in build, personality, and cuisine specialties, while the male chefs are all 500lb bodybuilders, most of whom are rarely tasked with dishes more complex than ramen. And somehow having the same rabid following as comic books do.

edited 16th Aug '12 10:04:11 AM by Tangent128

I remember Teen Titans having a terrific variety of body types with both genders. Regarding female body typing issues, Terra was a particular standout in that she, quite reasonably for her age, had barely anything resembling cleavage. Despite this deviation from classic comic ideals of what a protagonist 'ought' to look like, it was pretty damn popular.

I was personally very disappointed to see the next big budget superhero cartoon, Young Justice, go back to heavily-idealized and correspondingly less-individualized designs in a given gender.

As I've mentioned before, the best example of an objectified male is Jacob from Twilight, and to a lesser extent, Edward, too.

@ King Zeal- My comment was directed to the two or three tropers, including yourself, who were discussing how female heros aren't allowed to become messy or in disarray. Supergirl was the first one to pop in my head.

As I said, "unless it is related to the plot". Being Stuffed into the Fridge doesn't subvert Beauty Is Never Tarnished; it reinforces it. Because when it happens, it's meant to indicate that something is really, really wrong.

I like the designs in Young Justice. The women aren't overly sexualized to a ridiculous extent.

The point isn't that women don't like sexy women being in superhero comics. The point is is that this is nearly EVERY SINGLE WOMAN and that they're posed in ways that look more like they're in a bad porno than in an action sequence. That women who are fighters are nearly always dressed up in a Red Sonja metal bikini when that makes no fucking sense for a warrior. That their sexiness is played up far over their ability to fight or whatever it is they're supposed to do.

Not to mention that they're quite often put into poses where it looks like their spines are broken just so boobs can be shown off. Who gives a fuck about anatomy? Gotta show those tits off!

Re: Guys tastes in what is attractive is less diverse—

College Humor recently did an interesting pair of surveys— now, while "sexy" and "attractive" may mean two different things what with connotations and such, the results are interesting.

For people who like girls

For people who like guys

edited 16th Aug '12 11:18:34 AM by Wulf

Is it really that big of a deal?

Men and Women have different tastes.

Thats a stereotype.

Also you can look at the comic movies for good examples I think (Most of the time at least)

Black Widow from the Avengers looked nice.

edited 16th Aug '12 11:55:36 AM by Thorn14

So? It doesn't change the fact that women are still sexualized. Or that she was put on that poster with her ass facing the audience instead of in a serious action pose.

This sexualization of women is incredibly prevalent. And dismissing it as a "stereotype" is not going to change that.

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/ This is a pretty good blog about the issue.

I think that's less about sexism and more about how Liefeld basically destroyed Western comics.

No, it's about sexism. There's a whole lot of examples on that blog that aren't Liefield.

(That guy couldn't really draw anyone correctly.)

Well as soon as the core demographic changes from young males to females, they'll shift.

Topics like this just feel like a massive guilt trip in a "no fun allowed" sort of way.

edited 16th Aug '12 12:10:19 PM by Thorn14

Wow, what a piss poor reason to not correct the way women are portrayed. Maybe they'd get some fucking female fans if they actually bothered to treat women as characters rather than sex pieces. We tend to not like being objectified.

That and there are female comics fans. We've had to resort to the internet and manga for what we want to read, because American comics are so bad at delivering it. Because of just that attitude, Thorn.

Edit: It's not about "no fun allowed". It's about "treat female characters with some fucking respect so we can have some damn fun ourselves."

edited 16th Aug '12 12:11:21 PM by AceofSpades

I'm putting things in a business perspective is all.

They probably feel they can get more adolescent males with sexy than they can females.

Call it old fashion or incorrect, but I'm just playing businessman's advocate.

And what if some people like sexy?

I mean, I agree some things are extreme (I don't like Chainmail Bikini most of the time) but what about say...removing Power Girl's cleavage? I remember there being some rage when they did that.

edited 16th Aug '12 12:15:11 PM by Thorn14

Well, I was more using Liefeld as the fall guy, but I was really talking about the direction that Western comics went in during the late 80's and the 90's (and continues to this day). Most of the the comic things there are that style, as I would define it. I definitely agree that the "boobs and butt" poses are objectifying. I think that a lot of the other ones are just crappy. They're designed to be "hyper-realistic" and "edgy" but they just look stupid.

Edit: I think the solution is when we can have a conversation about what is sexy without being objectifying. Unfortunately this is a debate, I think where the ground is truly salted.

edited 16th Aug '12 12:17:05 PM by Karmakin

How likely is it that the targeted demographic will shift or expand if the same tastes are kept being pandered to? Just because some of the comic book demographic like that kind of thing isn't a reason to portray women as objects who are just there to bend themselves into the desired poses. I don't think we will see any real changes until artists themselves start taking the initiative. Though again it depends how much freedom they're given by the execs I guess.

edited 16th Aug '12 12:17:16 PM by PiccoloNo92

Not very. Or at least, they won't be very enthusiastic about trying it.

They may be fine with their demographic and may fear they would lose it if they removed it.

With more independent publishers like Image and webcomics which cut out the need for a company entirely, I don't think that the Big Two are likely to move all that much.

But, surprisingly enough, there are fans of both companies! Female fans, that are making their opinions to the companies known, and doing what they can to express that they want things going in a different direction. That doesn't have gratuitous boob windows and women in clothes that make sense.

Also, I don't think Liefield is to blame for the tone of comics in the nineties. That movement was happening before him, he just drew both terribly and very differently from what artists did before. He's somewhat improved now, in that the waists on women aren't as thin as their arms. But seriously, he's not to blame for the lack of caring and lack of skill on the part of other artists. That is their own damn fault.

Edit: A woman can be sexy while being fully clothed, you know. Or at least not showing the audience how high up her bikini wax goes.

edited 16th Aug '12 12:22:28 PM by AceofSpades

Most male super hero clothes make little sense too.

And what about iconic outfits?

I remember there being a big hubub when Wonder Woman put on pants, or them removing the boob window from Power Girl

edited 16th Aug '12 12:23:16 PM by Thorn14

Most male superheros are fully clothed instead of showing off most of their skin.

Yup. Like I said, I generally put the blame on that hyper-realistic style that became almost a parody of itself during that period. I could and probably SHOULD have blamed it on Image, but that's neither here nor there :p

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/post/28979589200/maplebee-submitted-red-sonja-not

That's a link from that site linked above. I think that's pretty much my feelings on the matter.

Why is male sexual desire always demonized? Is it really that much of a problem that the women are wearing sexy costumes? It's not like the only reason they're there is so they can be ogled at and the men always look pretty attractive too. Oh wait, that's just a male power fantasy. Women never sexual objectify men.

Why have I never heard anyone use the term female power fantasy?