"Sexist superhero costumes" from Cracked

and Well I'm male and I quite liked Twilight. :) I thought it was interesting!

edited 27th Aug '12 6:04:54 AM by Guest1001

In before more and more people express tired comments like 'We don't want sexism powered female characters because they should get less heroine roles'

There is no costume done right and wrong in this matter. It's still just costumes.

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...

I feel you. I'm female and I much rather dive into Franzetta's version of Red Sonja and stuff like 30 Days of Night then be dragged kicking and screaming into something like Sex In The City.

We as a society have our gender norms all sorts of messed up. I know that I am a very extreme exception. But the comic indusry, gaming industry, and what not is so insulated from being a segregated little group always on the defensive, breaking their cultural bad habits wll be more difficult than others.

Most creators in these industries don't have much experience with either gender except as that nerdy, self-fulfilling nitch. Until DC and Marvel pop their heads out of teir caves and see more options, other franchises who are waking up and producing differently will begin to tower above them.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Having more of that sort of thing in comics would be a nice change, yes. I don't see "Sex And The City" as particularly juvenile next to, say, Civil War or Deathmate, but then again, I don't watch the show.

However, I can't think of any reason why we couldn't have more of diverse genre that allows for multiple types of fantasy.

You jumped to that conclusion all on your own. There are ways to both deconstruct a series and portray its tropes positively at the same time.

As I said, it's about juvenile storytelling. Comic books are still pulp art, and have a hard time growing out of that. Comic writers are not typically held to any sort of standard in the industry. Oh sure, you occasionally have your gems like Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, and Neil Gaiman, but for the most part, comic books are written with a specific conclusion in mind (a character dies, a universe reboots, a status quo is reset, etc) and the writer just scripts it and collects his check.

Oh sure, Hollywood is typically inept as well, but now that millions of dollars are involved, companies like Sony and Disney are opting for Pragmatic Adaptations for comic book I Ps.

edited 27th Aug '12 7:27:35 AM by KingZeal

WRONG THREAD

edited 27th Aug '12 8:20:48 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

"none of the guys in the audience want to look like Arnold"

Some men do and some men don't. I supposed I'm politely asking you to speak for yourself on this one.

Batman and Nightwing are part of what got me into ninjutsu and weightlifting. I also grew up watching 80's and 90's action stars, and they also influenced my initial interest in fitness. I'm not alone on this. When the movie 300 was release, there was and still is a lot of buzz about how those men got into shape, and I still see other men mimicking those training techniques. This also contributed to increased sales of Miller's graphic novel on which the movie is based, so I wouldn't be so quick to say that no one wants to look like Batman, Thor or Bane...all of those characters recently played by physically fit men who are at least moderately admired by both men and women for different reasons.

Fantasies don't exist in some vacuum beyond the human condition. Our fantasies are a derivative of real human desires influenced by our perception of reality. I'm not saying you were implying any of this, and this is just a general comment not directed to anyone in particular. I just have a problem with the "it's just harmless, irrelevant fantasy" argument because those fantasies have to come from somewhere in our culture, be it our politics, language, ideology and gender norms.

edited 27th Aug '12 11:56:46 AM by Aprilla

Men of a certain sexuality perhaps? I mean there really isn't deneying a homoerotic subtext with {{300}} for example. As much as Frank Miller would like it.

edited 28th Aug '12 11:04:31 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

Or the desire, however subconscious or not it is, to have a powerful alpha-type figure to look up to.

It's a genuinely great article, and I was surprised at the amount of blowback it got. From a female point of view, the costumes shown are obviously sexist. Costumes that deliberately sexualize women just for the benefit of male readers can't be anything but sexist.

Yes, both women and men's bodies are presented in idealized forms in comic books. The difference is that depictions of male characters 1) generally focus on what they are doing - on action - not solely on what the hero looks like; and 2) are presented to fulfill male ideas of what they would like to look/be like. Female characters, in contrast, are not drawn to appeal to female fantasies of being an action hero; they are drawn to appeal to what male readers want women to look like. Women do not typically fantasize about having a body that looks like it's composed primarily of breasts and an ass. And as the first article shows in multiple pictures, female superheroes are drawn in a way that deliberately emphasizes those body parts, in a completely unnecessary manner, rather than placing a focus on what the female hero is actually doing (look at the very first picture in the article for an obvious example).

And "it's a male genre" is 1) untrue and 2) not an excuse. There are plenty of women who like superhero stories, and more would be more inclined to read comics if comic books actually treated them with respect.

edited 28th Aug '12 7:26:24 PM by WarriorEowyn

I don't think the costumes and character designs themselves are sexist. Rather, the fact that most of the people working at Marvel and DC are men is sexist, and the sexualized depictions of women are just an outgrowth of that.

Going a tad far aren't we.

edited 28th Aug '12 11:57:28 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

How so? From what I can tell, men vastly outnumber women among the writers, artists, and editors working for Marvel and DC. That doesn't happen through sheer coincidence.

Maybe women are just not applying for the jobs.

edited 29th Aug '12 12:08:49 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

Women are still shunned from many of these enterprises. Sports writing , video gaming, and the comic industry is notorious for making women unwelcome and unequally challenged. It's not that women aren't interested or even quality, Felicia Day is the first person to pop in my head and she works with Dark Horse. (She's brilliant).

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

And it doesn't always stop at shunning. Women who create anything, let alone content for a male-dominated market, get a huge amount of crap from (mostly male) consumers.

I have been offended by the direction of the conclusion the people of this thread has come to. Really? Calling people sexist now? The DOOR of GENDERS swing BOTH ways.

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...

Um. What?

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

@Duranzo: Indeed.

Sometimes it's when they write romance. Other times because the costumes are clearly not sexist enough(showing off Ass, Boobs, even having a Cameltoe), or even if they don't make the male character of any importance.

One thing to notice is there's never a good ratio on either end of the spectrum. Too many males or too many females. With some exceptions, many shows with almost all women has a lot of romance. And vice versa with many shows with a lot of men has mostly action. Look at just about any Magical Girl show that is more related to Slice of Life(and less action, although they always have a Romantic Plot Tumor if it's a magical girl show... well, almost always) For some action shows, take a look at Power Rangers for the opposite. Almost all male rangers. Same with most villains. The most important character is almost always a male, where the female is usually shafted or forced to be either a girly girl or a tomboy. Rarely is it a nice mix.(but when it is, it works well.)

And so on. The ratio, comic or otherwise, is blatantly terrible. It's even worse when there's almost no story and only the males have much of one.(not all, like Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat are fairly decent with some of the female cast, but only often the first, say 5. The rest are just meh. Often the males still have more importance overall) Also, unless there's no males whatsoever(atleast among the heroes), any story starring a women has romance added in for no reason.(Final Fantasy sometimes goes with this)

Long story short, a lot of work has to be done beyond costumes alone.(it'd be a start) And the costumes have gotten terrible sometimes. Even in what should be innocent works.(Shining Force... has a bikini costume... for no reason at all.)

Quest 64 thread

IIRC, the statistics I've read said something along the lines of the fact that when it comes to webcomics, and indie comics, it's relatively close to gender parity when it comes to creators. It's only once you get into the big, established mainstream comic publishers that the number of women involved plummets.

So it's not as if there aren't a lot of female comic creators out there, it's just far fewer of them than men manage to break into mainstream comics.

Why? Well, this thread has had some suggestions, and I am sure there are other reasons too.

Also, from what I've heard, you don't apply to work at Marvel or DC. You build up a resume in smaller companies, and then they approach you.

The owner of this account is temporarily unavailable. Please leave your number and call again later.

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Edited by fanty on Sep 28th 2019 at 2:39:29 PM

If they paid you a billion dollars to work for them, wouldn't you be able to start your own company?

More to the point, why would you decry the company for being a boys' club and then express dismay at women who wish to work there?

---

When Dan Didio had a panel at a convention a year or so back, just prior the New Fifty Two relaunch, Dan gave an open mic to the audience, and the audience immediately began to chant: "Hire! More! Women! Hire! More! Women!"

Dan quickly snapped back: "Who? Who do you want me to hire? Who? Give me a name. Give the name of these people you want me to hire." The crowd was pretty stunned after that.

But the thing is, it's not the audience's job to know what female writers are available in the hiring pool—it's his.

edited 29th Aug '12 7:37:38 AM by KingZeal

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Edited by fanty on Sep 28th 2019 at 2:39:19 PM

Marvel and DC both hold disclosure statements. Their employees sign over their rights to freelace, hire to someone else, or start their own company for different sets of time should they leave the company just to get hired in the first place.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Gail Simone is well-known for bringing attention to the Stuffed into the Fridge phenomenon in comics. She is one of the most-respected creators in the industry, although I'm sure she's been mandated to do some things she disagreed with. That doesn't stop the good she's done for the industry. In fact, part of this discussion wouldn't be taking place if not for her.

I'm an African-American, and I've been paying attention to the facets of the comic industry for many, many decades. Unfortunately, there aren't many of my kind as writers or artists in any of the big companies either, and the ones that are there still have to draw a bunch of white people. Dwayne Mc Duffie, co-creator of Static and Static Shock, wrote the critically-acclaimed Justice League series. He gave John Stewart a major push as one of the few non-Caucasoid adonises in the DC roster.

If you don't feel like being bothered, then don't be bothered. But don't criticize the people who are trying to do something about the very complaints you're making.

edited 29th Aug '12 8:02:09 AM by KingZeal

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Edited by fanty on Sep 28th 2019 at 2:39:13 PM