Misleading and inaccurate name, overlap with another index: Trans Gender Tropes

I propose that Trans Gender Tropes be renamed or changed for the following reasons:

1. The name is unclear. This index lumps together numerous tropes pertaining to the subversion of or blurring of the boundaries between gender roles, while the term "transgender" is actually more specific and was professedly selected only for the sake of a bad pun.

2. A name already exists for such behaviours, "genderqueer", which sees usage in both LGBT and academic circles.

3. GID tropes belong with Queer as Tropes, whereas the use of crossdressing tropes and tropes pertaining to superficial appearances (like Bifauxnen and Dude Looks Like a Lady) is not always directly LGBT related.

4. The index has a healthy number of inbounds but very few wicks, so moving it and redirecting Trans Gender Tropes to the more relevant Queer as Tropes would not be difficult.

I agree with you, Bobby because most of the tropes in that index aren't related to Transgenderism at all but Gender-queerness which a totally different thing from transgenderism and not related to it at all.

However, what to do with Unsettling Gender-Reveal because it can't decide whether it is a Transgender trope or a Cross dressing one

There's a lot of overlap between crossdressing tropes and actual transgender tropes. They tend to be played very similarly in fiction to the point where they're sometimes treated like the same thing.

Well they're not the same thing. Anyway, this thread is about the Transgendered index containing more than 50% of tropes which are Gender-queer in nature

^^ If so, the index is still very misleadingly named, as it's much broader in scope than the title implies.

However, we do have a Queer as Tropes index, which is supposed to encompass transgender tropes.

edited 14th Feb '12 1:42:02 PM by BobbyG

I realise that they aren't the same thing. That doesn't seem to stop media from treating them like they are. It's one of the more frustrating things Hollywood does.

Websites like Baka Manga Updates usually just have "Gender Bender" as a genre name for all of it regardless of the actual type. Not surprisingly since many of the related tropes and steorotypes are more or less the same. Some works will also feature several types together.

^^ But that doesn't invalidate the need for a more indicative title, does it?

^ Then those works contain multiple tropes. Is that a problem?

I really don't think putting Transgender tropes in Queer as Tropes is a good idea. They aren't the same thing, and really that plays into the "TG people are just Super Double Plus Gay" mentality.

Actually, "queer" is sometimes used as a catch-all term, not just to refer specifically to homosexuals. Putting all the tropes on Queer as Tropes would be way less offensive than having them on a page with "trans-gender" in the title, since so many of them have nothing to do with transgendered people.

I support using Queer as Tropes as a catch-all for everything that isn't perfectly mundane heterosexuality.

Then maybe have a separate place for cross-dressing and gender reveals.

edited 14th Feb '12 3:58:18 PM by abk0100

Queer != gay.

It is a politically loaded term, and one which some find offensive, but when we have a page misleadingly entitled Trans Gender Tropes, that's evidently not our primary concern.

In LGBT and academic circles, "queer" is a broad term which is commonly applied to LGBT individuals and people who aren't heterosexual/heteronormative or don't conform to gender binaries. "Transgender", on the other hand, is a very specific term, which certainly doesn't encompass Dude Looks Like a Lady.

Ninja'd. Agreed with .

edited 14th Feb '12 4:00:35 PM by BobbyG

Gender Bender Tropes ? Gender Bending Tropes ?

edited 14th Feb '12 4:00:09 PM by KiTA

What would that include? Everything that's currently on Trans Gender Tropes?

Gender Bender is already a specific fantasy trope.

(It's also slightly awkwardly named, since it involves a change in physical sex, while when a distinction is made between gender and sex, the latter refers to physical traits, not the former, but I believe it's a pre-existing term, not sure.)

In most external (manga and anime sites) use of the term, Gender Bending is a catch all term for any playing with Gender as a storytelling mechanic. The physical act of changing gender when used light heartedly is typically the main one, but I have seen plenty of cross dressing and gender interdynamics used for the same — for example, one of the manga I saw not too long ago flagged Gender Bender involved a guy who looked very girly, who was playing as a girl in his family's kabuki troupe. There was no fantasy elements involved as far as I could tell.

The TRS thread is about renaming the trope, which I think would be fine enough — I personally think tying it in with Gender Bender is the best, as that's the most commonly used trope, and is typically associated with playing with Gender (which is what this index is ultimately about). The term "Gender Bender" is used for the trope of someone physically switching genders, but as a term it also brings to mind playing with gender as a concept — which is what we have on the index now.

Now, moving things to Queer As Tropes, I don't agree as much with — There are many tropes out there that fit on multiple trope indexes. Having a trope index (this one) about playing with Gender doesn't preclude it also fitting in with Queer as Tropes (LGBI tropes). Copying things to that trope list would be just fine, however.

I see this index as it stands as being a catch all index for subverting / playing with gender and the dynamics therein — so transformations, cross dressing, all that falls under this index. I feel simply renaming the trope to fit a broader definition would be enough to fix the issues brought up.

edited 14th Feb '12 4:27:24 PM by KiTA

The difference between "gender and sex" is, as far as I know, something that is actually really vague and undefined.

If you talk to certain people, they'll tell you that gender and sex are 2 completely different words that never mean the same thing, but that's really just them trying to convince you of their way of looking at things. It has less to do with what the words really mean and more to do about their opinion on the nature of sex.

That all sounds good. Just renaming it to something that isn't nonindicative.

Gender-Blending Tropes or Gender Confusion Tropes?

edited 14th Feb '12 4:36:46 PM by abk0100

"Gender" refers to the social construct of gender, including gender identity, gender roles and so on, while "sex" denotes biological sex. In the past three decades the terms have started to get confused a bit and gender is now commonly used to denote sex, especially colloquially, but the distinction persists in the social sciences and humanities, and is useful when discussing the identities of transgenders and genderqueers, whose gender differs from their biological sex.

I'm not keen on Gender Confusion Tropes; might it be interpreted as a pejorative?

edited 14th Feb '12 5:30:59 PM by BobbyG

"Gender Blender"?

Gender-Blender Name is where it came from.

I guess you could interpret it as saying that cross-dressers are confused about their gender, which would be bad.

edited 14th Feb '12 5:54:34 PM by abk0100

Meh. As the guy who did the YKTTW, all I ask is that the redirect at TG Tropes and Transvestite Tropes remain.

Gender Blender Tropes sounds okay.

Thanks
Luc "The reason the page was originally created was the pun redirects" French

^ Yes, I was afraid that might be the case.

Gender-Blending Tropes or Gender Bending Tropes seem alright.

To be honest, I think the Trans tropes should go into the Gender And Sexuality tropes index. However, Gender Bender is a specific trope that already refers to something

Gender-Blending Tropes seems like the least-bad alternative.

We're kinda stuck with some awkward terminology. In particular, Gender Bender, which as noted is actually about change of physical sex. And on top of *that*, the term "Gender Bender" is often used in various fandoms for all sorts of things that aren't even that, like crossdressing, cosplay, Gender Flip, etc.

The main trap I want to avoid is something like "We'll change all our terms to those accepted in the LGBT community." Mainly because TV Tropes is about storytelling, not about sociology or gender politics, but even more because there's no agreement *within* that community about a lot of this stuff (not to mention that lots of the "Ts" don't actually consider themselves part of the same community as the "LGB" and vice versa.)

Theres a difference between Social Psychology/Sociology/Gender Politics and the index having the wrong bloody name. The index is supposed to be about subverting,averting and inverting gender norms with the accepted term is Gender-queer.

Genderqueer Tropes is noooot one I like. Mainly because, outside of a small subset of the LBGI community, the term Queer invokes all kinds of negative imagery.

I like Gender Bender Tropes (or perhaps Gender Bending Tropes) myself, as it's fairly descriptive, related to the most common trope on the list, is related to the most common usage of the term in the Anime and Manga subculture (where Gender Bender means any play on Gender norms), and the word play in general works fairly well. Gender Blender Tropes mostly makes me think someone misspelled Gender Bender.