The Amazing Spider-man

If it does badly, it would be harder for executives to justify making another one. Marvel would be able to pick it up from there. Preferably with a scramble to make up for losses resulting in the sale of the rights back to Marvel Studios.

I know I sound like a broken record but I can't think of any great Spider-Man stories featuring other Marvel characters. The Sin Eater story with Daredevil is pretty decent but Secret Wars wouldn't necessarily need Spider-Man and what I've read about Civil Wars has convinced me to stay as far away from it as possible.

Maybe Sony and Marvel Studios should co-produce a movie based on a story where The Avengers decide to test Spider-Man by assigning him to catch the Hulk. At the end of the story Spider-Man fails deliberately and isn't chosen. At least it would faithful to the comics.

Won't ever happen, because its in neither company's interest.

As for the benefits of a common setting for Spidey, its not so much about explicit crossovers. Its about establishing the milieu around him. Doubly so because of the Bugle: the headlines should be able to reference other stuff than just Spider-man, and its important for the character that Jameson be able to contrast Spider-man with other heroes.

Actually, Spidey's extremely crossover-y, but his crosses aren't really crossovers - if that makes any sense. One of the better little details in the Spider-Man comics is how well he does the "other characters make bit appearances that don't detract from him being the hero of the story."

He runs into some kind of magical enemy, and so he pops in to see Dr. Strange for advise and they exchange witty banter for a bit, then he goes on to face the villain and Doc is out of the story. He's swinging through the city and he runs into the Human Torch, who helps him with his latest villain for while, again exchanging witty banter. Someone suffering from some kind of unknown scientific malady, he takes them to Mr. Fantastic for a checkup and some exposition, then goes off to deal with the problem.

Because of that, Spidey doesn't exactly need to be connected with the other heroes in the way that, say, Cap does, but doing so would enable him to add a lot of nice little touches into his movies.

And Spider-Man being in the MCU would make this scene possible for the big screen◊, which would be among the greatest moments to appear in a Spider-Man movie.

Also, the MCU having Spidey, the Fantastic Four and some of the X-Men characters would allow them to adapt "Read 'Em And Weep" as a Marvel One Shot. Which would also be awesome.

edited 27th May '12 7:43:46 PM by KnownUnknown

Who claimed people on tvtropes are objective? We do objective tropes on the work and trope pages, but you can fan out in the forums most of the time.

The previous trilogy had some of the highest grossing openings of all time, so even if the movie is terrible I doubt it will bomb at the box office. So hoping for it to fail so it can be integrated into the MCU just seems redundant. Sony is going to keep the rights either way, so I'd rather have a good movie.

Personally, while I'm cautious about the movie, it has at least set up Spider-Man's sense of humour, something I found sorely lacking from Tobey Maguire's interpretation.

^^^ My god, we need that scene!

But wait, wouldn't they need to get a new guy to be MCU!Spidey?

edited 28th May '12 7:10:40 AM by TechPowah

Exactly. The public would lose interest pretty fast.

Look, I get it. You want spidey to appear in avengers. But while you know he is a good team player, most people think of him as a solo hero. Let this movie be it's own thing. If you have your way, the public will lose interest in spiderman.

Instead of focusing too deeply on that, why don't you hope for other heroes? And no, I'm not talking about some precuel like the other guy said. Someone like... Black Panther, perhaps?

Marvel has a lot of other choices than the X men, FF 4, or spidey.

Besides, this is a discussion about Spidey's movie, not the MCU. What do you think will be the scale of the movie? It seems as if The Lizard and Oscorp are related, and he also seems to have a plan to launch "something" into the sky. Maybe a way to turn everyone in NY into Lizards?

I know I sound like a broken record but I can't think of any great Spider-Man stories featuring other Marvel characters.

Death of Jean DeWolff was a rather good one, and Daredevil was the Deuteragonist of that story.

edited 28th May '12 7:18:43 PM by Lionheart0

Straczynski's run had a fair bit of Spidey teaming up with Dr. Strange. They made for quite an interesting Odd Couple, to be honest. It was quite interesting.

Other than that it was mainly what I've already noted: Spidey rarely has full crossovers with other heroes, but his titles do often feature other heroes/teams in a secondary character capacity, or failing that as cameos. It's practically been a staple of his franchise for decades that he kind of works as a nexus for other characters to pop in and have random impact on his series, then pop out.

And we can't do both because...

edited 28th May '12 9:07:40 PM by KnownUnknown

Call me stupidly ambitious, but I want ALL of the heroes. All of them.

Also, I was talking about this movie. I want it to fail. Selfish, but optimistic reasons.

edited 28th May '12 9:40:21 PM by Zeromaeus

The early Spider-Man comics had far less cameos than the modern ones. In one story he tried to become a Fantastic Four team member, which obviously didn't work and only later befriended them and later The Avengers approached him, which didn't work either. It really took several years before Spider-Man was properly introduced to many Marvel characters. It wasn't until Batman Forever that Robin was introduced to the earlier Batman film series partly, because Batman Returns had already enough characters as it was.

The Human Torch showed up decently often, actually. The early comics used cameos to play them up as semi-rivals. And his first or second annual was a Dr. Strange crossover, IIRC. The other of the two might have been a Daredevil crossover, I think.

I very much doubt that this movie will actually fail at the box office badly enough that Sony will drop the property (if memory serves, Sony is already looking to hire screenwriters for a sequel so it seems like Sony is going to make at least one more movie regardless of how well this one does). But, in order for there to be successful crossover, wouldn't there have to be, at the very least, a decent Fantastic Four reboot or something like that? After all, I think the success of the Iron Man movie was a major factor behind the decision to make the Avengers.

Marvel's got a much better chance of getting F4 back in the near future than they do of getting Spider-Man by my guess, given how much of a movie gold mine Spider-Man has been so far.

But other than franchise loyalty, I don't see the cause for wanting them to get properties like Spider-Man or X-Men back, since the majority of movies in both those franchises have been better than the typical Marvel movie (aside from Avengers) and there's only so many heroes you can add to a universe before things start getting too ungainly. The comics themselves seem to suffer from that.

Avengers worked because, prior to the Marvel movies, none of the heroes had a huge profile among non-comic-book-fans. Spider-Man does. I don't think you could pull off making him a bit character in someone else's movie.

At the same time though, I get the sense that Spider-Man only really became mainstream through the first and second Raimi films. Given that they are effectively rebooting the origin story that already appeared in the first movie (seemingly with the intention of being truer to the comics), I'm not exactly sure how Sony plans on continuing the Spider-Man franchise with Spidey as a solo-hero without rehashing the Raimi films.

I think a big problem with a lot of the really mainstream super heroes is that they only really have a few well known villains. The only Batman and Superman villains that people who have never read the comics can probably name pretty consistently are the Joker and Lex Luthor. Pretty much all of Spider-man's well known villains (Green Goblin, Venom, etc.) have already been done in films that are pretty recent and a lot of the lesser known villains really don't have the kind of widespread appeal that Sony seems to want with these films(in order to make large sums of money). After all, I have seen lots of people in Joker costumes but not one single person dressed up as The Penguin or the Riddler for Halloween despite the fact that they are all pretty popular as comic-book villains.

Eventually, they will either have to stop making spider-man films or start integrating spider-man into the MCU if they still want the character to be relevant.

edited 29th May '12 1:15:08 PM by naroinar

I don't know, a redone version of Venom, Electro, Chameleon, Carnage, Vulture, Morbius, the Spider-slayers, more credible versions of Kraven/Mysterio, hell maybe even something like Jack O'Lantern. That's not even including supporting guys like Rhino, Tombstone, Scorpion, Hammerhead, Shocker, or mob types like Silvermane and Smythe.

Mainstream or not they're not exactly hurting for cool or interesting villains.

edited 29th May '12 4:42:46 PM by BorneAgain

On the Spidey-MCU thing, I mostly just think it's weird to have a Marvelverse without Spider-Man.

Now that I think of it, is there a Marvelverse without a Spider-Man?

edited 29th May '12 6:28:47 PM by TechPowah

Because it's pointless, since this movie is probably gonna be successfull anyway, and it is pretty inmature to hope for a movie that probably took a lot of work to make to fail just because some people have some deep seated obsession with seeing Spider Man in The Avengers.

Right now they're releasing a movie, don't know if you heard. That's relevant. Besides, most people know about the penguin and the other guys. The Dark Knight and Iron Man were succesfull, and the first one also featured two face, while the other one featured The Iron Monger. People don't need to know the super villain in question.

Get it through your skulls people, spiderman will not go into the MCU.

And I, for one, am grateful. I don't understand some people's fixation about getting all the Marvel heroes under one roof.

It's because as long as the rights remain scattered, certain properties can't be used by the MCU, even if they're only marginally related to a character. Skrulls and Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver are good examples — technically you might be able to put them in an Avengers movie, but the legality is a bit tricky, because one started in the Fantastic Four and the other in the X-Men.

As already stated, a great number of the elements in Marvel comics are reliant on characters and elements from other comics. For instance, so long as the Fantastic Four rights aren't held by Marvel Studios, they cannot use the Skrulls, Galactus, Doom and other such entities in their movies.

Besides, it wouldn't exactly hurt to have all of the Marvel properties being produced by Marvel themselves.

EDIT: I just got a good Spiderman thing. Apparently, the Iron Patriot armor will be appearing in Iron Man 3. Probably just as a cameo for the armor, but in the comics, the Iron Patriot armor was piloted by one Norman Osborn. Something that can't happen so long as Spiderman lies outside of Marvel Studios.

edited 30th May '12 9:13:27 PM by Zeromaeus

Coldblood will be the one in the Iron Patriot armor...but that's neither here nor there.

I'm guessing they're using the Iron Patriot armor as more like the evolution of the sort of thing Stark hated about the concept of the government getting control over his tech: privatized weapons under a superficial banner, cheapening what it means to hum and used to serve someone's whims.

Still, Norman Osborn in the MCU would be fairly interesting. I suppose he end up being a kind of recurring Stane, however. That would likely be the main problem toward Spidey getting into the MCU - the universe is already established without him. It's fairly luckily that no matter what Spider-Man is more isolated and self-sufficient than some of the other titles in the series, but it would also make a possible presence elsewhere a little iffy.

Don't you realize all the ways you're exaggerating the sentiments people who simply disagree with you? Deep seeded obsession? Really?

You're assuming "would like to see Spidey in the MCU" = "wants movie to fail in order for that to happen," which are nowhere near the same thing.

And in any case, that didn't answer my question - you seemed to think it was impossible to want Spidey in the MCU and also want other, forgotten heroes in the MCU as well. As the MCU has already shown they can introduce and work several different projects at once, that kind of claim is a little illogical. That's why as asked "why can't we do both?"

edited 31st May '12 12:01:51 AM by KnownUnknown

I don't know anything about the Iron Patriot but wouldn't Norman Osborn, without being Green Goblin first or having any build up, be Norman Osborn in name only? What the film makers are trying to do is to adapt the best/most iconic stories and ignore elements that wouldn't fit in. All Batman adaptations ignore Batcave trophies, for example.