Midnight Rambler Explains Dutch Stuff

I have an old friend who lives in Heerugoweet, I think the spelling is. :o Anyting notable about that place, or is that like a district of a larger city?

EDIT: Ohh, wait it might be Heerhugowaard.

edited 23rd Jun '13 6:25:03 AM by Zersk

It's a place. Pretty nice place to live. Reasonably close to Amsterdam, good standard if living, but not much of interest, really.

Heerhugowaard, North Holland. Population: about 53,000. Has an unusual layout◊ for a Dutch town, with lots of water and geometric patterns.

Kayeka's 'not much of interest, really' is a bit of an understatement. Heerhugowaard is in West Frisia (not to be confused with the province of Frisia, or the German region of East Frisia).

West Frisia is notorious for its suicide rate (structurally higher than in the rest of the country) and its drug problems. Also, many young people from the region tend to move away once they get the chance, usually to Amsterdam or another large city. This can all be traced back to there being fuck all to do in West Frisia.

edited 26th Jun '13 9:24:14 AM by MidnightRambler

Had to think of this thread when I heard the news: The United Nations want to investigate the potential racism of the character of Zwarte Piet.

Here's the letter of the UN.

Now this is what I call patronising.

Huh. This isn't the first time people complain about Zwarte Piet, but it is the first time (as far as I know) that the United Nations is involved.

Well, whatever. My reaction is still "Oh god, not this crap again".

Funny... I think I learned about Zwarte Piet when I was a kid, except that the presenter called him "Black Bart" for some reason.

Huh. How do you get "Bart" from "Piet", anyway? <confused> Zero sense is found. -_-

edited 20th Oct '13 4:24:09 PM by Euodiachloris

Why are we talking about this in October ?

Are there any intact Late Medieval or Renaissance fortifications?

I swear there was an old Star Fort that had a rather interesting layout but I could be thinking of another location.

You mean something like the Castle? Yup. There are plenty of star forts still in various states of repair, mate. <shrugs>

Heee: here's a list.

edited 23rd Oct '13 9:36:19 PM by Euodiachloris

euo: Ahh your a peach. Found the fort I was thinking of. Bourtange.

Oh, yeah: that's got VOC written all over it. Well, it would have if you found it in South Africa.

You spend time trying to find the original placements of settlements by looking for starfish in the grass when making fly-by sweeps.

edited 23rd Oct '13 10:52:41 PM by Euodiachloris

Season creep. The same reason why supposedly many American radio stations start playing Christmas songs in November.

edited 24th Oct '13 1:50:17 AM by Kayeka

Speaking of season creep, it feels like summer vacation is increasingly taking place in the spring

Yeah, the Zwarte Piet debate is early this year. It's one of the three grand annual debates of our nation, together with Remembrance Day (April) and fireworks (late December).

This may be a good moment to introduce you to the Dutch expression storm in een glas water ('storm in a glass of water') referring to a lot of fuss over something trivial.

I mean, we've got the United Nations on our back about it now, including that one Verene Shepherd woman who really has no idea what she's talking about. The papers are full of historians trying to explain the origins of the Zwarte Piet figure and support or debunk the idea that it's a racist caricature; historians are starting to remind me of economists in how little they agree with each other. Twitter is snarking it up: 'maybe Sinterklaas should start throwing chemical warheads around, then the UN would leave him alone.' A Facebook page called Pietitie (from Piet + petitie, petition) calling for the preservation of the Sinterklaas tradition in its current form, has generated 2.1 million likes - one eighth of the entire population of the Netherlands - within the past three days.

To throw in my own two cents: I support the traditional Sinterklaas celebration, and I think it can be filed under 'innocent cultural quirks that every nation should figure out for itself without the rest of the world getting on their case.' Values Dissonance means that you're likely to find something shockingly offensive in every country if you don't know their culture or history. And it's not like we're whipping people through the streets or anything.

Mostly, though, I agree with Kayeka in that I just want everyone to shut up about this.

The British expression is "storm in a teacup". National stereotypes and all that!

edited 25th Oct '13 1:14:13 PM by Achaemenid

And in the US it's a "tempest in a teapot"; closely related to "making a mountain out of a molehill".

Oh, yeah, I think I heard that one before. It does suit you guys.

'Making a mountain out of a molehill' has a close equivalent in Dutch van een mug een olifant maken ('make an elephant out of a mosquito').

Some other Dutch proverbs and expressions that might be interesting:

Je moet de huid niet verkopen voor de beer geschoten is. - 'You shouldn't sell the hide before the bear has been shot.' You shouldn't make promises you're not yet sure you'll be able to keep, or boast about feats you haven't pulled off yet.

Wie het kleine niet eert, is het grote niet weerd. - 'Who doesn't honour the small isn't worthy of the large.' Always be thankful for the good things you get, even if they're not as awesome as you'd ideally like them to be. Note that this uses the archaic form weerd to make the rhyme work; in modern Dutch it would be waard instead.

De beste stuurlui staan aan wal. - 'The best sailors are on the shore.' It's easy to criticise people if you don't carry the responsibility.

Honger maakt rauwe bonen zoet. - 'Hunger makes raw beans sweet.' People lower their standards if they're desperate.

Als Mohammed niet naar de berg komt, komt de berg wel naar Mohammed. - 'If Mohammed won't come to the mountain, well, the mountain will come to Mohammed.' Said in situations where something is brought to a person, while they would normally go to it. For example, say Alice is sick and can't attend her friends' get-together, so they move the event to her room instead.

Bij Alkmaar begint de victorie! - 'Victory starts at Alkmaar!' Said when you're in a sticky situation, or faced with a difficult task, and then you can suddenly claim an important success. The sentiment expressed is something like 'see, this is a turning point, now we're on the way up again.' Refers to the Siege of Alkmaar during the Eighty Years War. Alkmaar was one of the first Dutch cities to withstand a siege by the Spaniards.

de kat op het spek binden - 'tie the cat to the bacon.' Forbid something, but then make it extremely tempting for people to do it anyway.

iemand van het kastje naar de muur sturen - 'send someone from the cupboard to the wall.' This refers to situations where Alice comes to Bob with a problem or complaint, and Bob tells her to take it to Charlie, who tells her to take it to Doris, and so on and so on. Favoured tactic of Obstructive Bureaucrats. Bonus points if she's eventually sent back to Bob.

de kool en de geit sparen - 'save the cabbage and the goat.' Talk in very vague terms, in order not to offend either side of a controversial debate. Simply and honestly (some would say bluntly) stating your opinion without beating around the bush is valued highly in Dutch culture, so this is a strongly negative expression. Politicians, especially Christian Democrats, are notorious for this.

Er gaat nog heel wat water door de Maas voordat... - 'A lot of water will flow through the Meuse before...' This is said of plans that will take a long time to realise (if they're ever realised at all), usually because there are a lot of political and/or procedural hurdles to take.

edited 26th Oct '13 1:24:56 PM by MidnightRambler

We have the exact same Mohammed proverb in the US.

The greatest compendium of Flemish and Dutch proverbs is Pieter Breughel's famous painting of people acting out proverbs literally.

Oh, yes: and, it's amazing how many cross over into Middle and Modern English, as well.

He's one of my favourite artists, actually. The humour, the technical skill, the disdain for painting the same old thing as almost everybody else... and the willingness to walk the dangerous satirical line that could have got him in trouble with the Spanish very easily. (For extra amazing: consider that we have so many of his works surviving because he got the balance exactly right: Spanish nobleman generally loved his works, partly because they were subversive enough to be interesting, even if they didn't always understand the entire message thanks to it being in pictorial Diets. )

He didn't lack guts. (And, I think he had more humour than Bosch and a more grounded world-view, which partly explains why I prefer his absurdist works.)

To be honest, I think I like his work for the exact same reasons I like reading Terry Pratchett: he was a humanist ahead of his time, with a sense of finding the absurdly amusing even in the hardships and human-caused problems of life.

edited 31st Oct '13 4:28:45 AM by Euodiachloris

Just discovered the topic, and wow, great! couldn't have done better myself. My parents are German immigrants, so I have both an insiders and an outsiders perspective on NL. I always slow down my friends when they go a bit too far with the nationalism

oh yes, and ER GAAT NIETS BOVEN GRONINGEN! (de randstad kan de pot op)

Oops, whas that some Misplaced Nationalism ? In English, I just said 'Nothing can top Groningen' (Groningen's slogan. Groningen is the most northern city of the country.) and that the randstad can go sit on the toilet.

It doesn't translate well.

Groningen is cool! Both my parents, and most of their friends, studied there. The whole earthquake thing really sucks for you guys. Hope they cut down the gas extraction soon. :/

Anyway, I recently fell in love with the Polandball meme, where countries (and sometimes provinces) are represented as MS Paint-drawn balls who speak Engrish. I decided to create a Polandball version of the Dutch Republic. Behold!◊

Now, some explanation of what it all means. Clockwise from top left:

• Holland is happy because it was the dominant province in the Republic, economically and politically. This is why many people still refer to the country as a whole as "Holland".
• Frisia is pissed at Holland's claim to unique relevance. Frisia is still one of the prouder "own regional identity! stronk!" provinces today.
• Groningen is laughing at the Prince-Bishop of Münster's threat of invasion. In the Year of Disaster (1672), when the Republic was attacked from all sides at once, the bishop laid siege to the city of Groningen. He failed hilariously, which is still celebrated in the city every year.
• Drenthe is sad because it wasn't represented in the States-General (the Republic's parliament of sorts) nor counted as one of the "Seven Provinces".
• Overijssel explains to Drenthe why this was the case: Drenthe had a tiny population, and made an accordingly tiny contribution to the Republic's treasury.
• Guelders looks down on the provinces that were counties before the Republic was created (such as Holland and Zealand). Guelders was a duchy and thus obviously superior. Not that this mattered a lot as there weren't any counts or dukes around anymore, but the delegates from Guelders still got to speak first when the States-General met, for this reason.
• What is now Limburg was a complete patchwork at the time. Parts of it belonged to the Republic, parts to the prince-bishopric of Liège, parts were more or less independent... and the parts that belonged to one state didn't always connect. The parts owned by the Republic were ruled as "Generality Lands"; this meant they had no States-Provincial of their own and no representation in the States-General. They were ruled directly by the States-General itself (hence Generality).
• Brabant of the States is sad because it was also a Generality Land. It was the part of the former duchy of Brabant that had been conquered by the Republic. Stadtholder Maurice of Orange once tried to get Brabant recognised as the 8th province... because he owned a lot of land there and would thus have wielded considerable influence in its States-Provincial. He never got his wish, because Holland (which called most of the shots) feared this would weaken its own dominance.
• Zealand is laughing about the blockade of the Scheldt. After Antwerp fell to the Spanish forces (1585) a small fleet blocked the Scheldt estuary, so merchant ships couldn't reach the city which was now in enemy hands. This dirty trick is what allowed Amsterdam to overtake Antwerp as the European centre of commerce. (The Fall of Antwerp also drove many Protestant merchants to flee the city, fearing religious persecution by the Spaniards. Many of them came to Amsterdam. They brought skills and money with them, which also helped). We kept up the Scheldt blockade for a good 200 years; the Belgians still resent us for it.
• Utrecht is pissed at people confusing them with Denmark. Well, the flags did look quite similar at the time...

As for the southern neighbours, left to right:

• Flanders is mad because the Republic had conquered part of it. This "Flanders of the States" was also ruled as a Generality Land. It is now part of Zealand (i.e. we never gave it back).
• Brabant is sad because its glory days were over. Before the Eighty Years War, it was the most important province in the Low Countries, but when the Republic separated it took a good chunk of Brabant's territory with it (Brabant of the States) and blocked Brabant's port Antwerp.
• The Prince-Bishopric of Liège is pretty content. Unlike the other territories in the Low Countries, Liège was never owned by the Habsburgs, nor did it join the Republic. It remained an independent state within the Holy Roman Empire up until the French Revolutionary Wars.

As for the goings-on at sea: there are the Dunkirkers, Flemish privateers who served the Spanish crown. They were a major pain in the ass of the Republic's merchants. They got their name from the port of Dunkirk, their main base of operations.

And of course I had to reference the naval rivalry with England. We fought no fewer than four naval wars with them. The Battle of Lowestoft (1665) and the Raid on the Medway (1667) were the greatest ass-whoopings delivered by England and the Republic, respectively.

The Republic thrived in part because it attracted a lot of (often wealthy and skilled) immigrants. Two of these immigrant groups are depicted here. There are the French Protestants, known as the Huguenots. The French were mostly Catholic and hated the Huguenots; eventually (1685) they managed to pressure the king into revoking the Edict of Nantes that granted the Huguenots protection. Many Huguenots then fled to the Republic.

The other group, of course, are the Jews. In Central Europe the Jews were often the victims of pogroms and other nastiness; fleeing this, they came to the Republic, which was a lot more tolerant. Not that we didn't discriminate against the Jews, but at least we didn't murder them.

edited 18th Jan '14 4:25:40 AM by MidnightRambler

What about the Battle of Camperdown? Bigger than Lowestoft, I'd say. The Medway was embarassing. Michiel De Ruyter knew his stuff.

I considered Kamperduin, but The Other Wiki says Lowestoft is the Dutch Navy's worst defeat ever. More importantly, Kamperduin happened in 1797 and thus falls outside the 1581-1795 period. The Brits were fighting the navy of the Batavian Republic there, not the United Provinces.