This page needs to die: Ensemble Darkhorse.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic

So, Ensemble Dark Horse.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've always had the impression that it's a trope about when one, or at most a few, characters not part of the main cast or something becomes unexpectedly popular with a majority of the fandom. Essentially, the complete opposite of The Scrappy.

But the Friendship is Magic page lists practically every character not in the main cast that's been in an episode, saying that they're popular, or are becoming popular, are getting fanart, ask blogs, stuff like that... it's seriously not an Ensemble Dark Horse page anymore. It's Every Character Has Fans, which isn't and should never be a trope. Just the fact that it was deemed a list long enough to need its own page should be a fairly good indication of that it's turned into Every Character Has Fans. A new episode aired yesterday, and to prove my point, there's already an entry for that episode on the page, which seems to say "every new pony introduced in this episode, including the background ones, are Ensemble Darkhorses!" And I assume this is how it's happened with every-single-episode.

I've considered simply sending the page to the cut list, but that probably wouldn't go through and people would scream about it. I still want to see the page gone in the end, because having a separate page for it probably makes it more likely for people to think it's okay to add any character that got a few fans (the only other separate Ensemble Dark Horse page, for Transformers, is less bad as it's both shorter than the FiM page and contains sections for characters from nine different continuities). But before that, let's talk about this. Let's discuss what we can do with this mess.

edited 29th Jan '12 10:12:51 AM by KennyMan666

I guess technically, they're more like Memetic Bystanders.

But I agree that it makes sense to wait a while before adding new characters to make sure they actually catch on. After all, who still remembers Screwball?

Wow. I think every single character with a name and a few that don't are listed on here.

Reduce it to cover the most popular supporting/minor characters, and relegate everypony else to Noncanon/characters.

Yeah, I think we need to trim this. No need to get rid of it completely, though. A lot of the examples are totally valid, even if they do also qualify as Memetic Bystander. I mean, background characters like Derpy, Lyra, DJ PON-3, and Octavia each have hundreds of images of fanart, and dozens of fanfic, so they definitely qualify here.

Honestly the show doesn't need it's own Ensemble Dark Horse page - I honestly think any show should have a separate ED page, and simply have it added to the Ensemble Dark Horse / Media subpage. The point is that it's an ED because it's a surprise that some character has fans, but usually because it contrasts to the rest that doesn't have any. If it lists the whole fucking cast then it pretty much loses its purpose.

Derpy is probably the clearest example of this trope, but there are a lot of shoehorned examples in there.

....I still remember Screwball... But yeah, the list is pretty much just listing everyone.

A lot of the background ponies listed are already on the character page for them. We could cut the list down to the obligary mention of actual long lasting darkhorses like Derpy, Doctor Whoof, Lyra, DJ Pon3, etc and just move the more minor ones on the character page (or if need be the analysis page if someone feels the need to talk about their popularity.

edited 29th Jan '12 10:21:18 AM by Calnos

I say we trim it, but leave the door open for any entires to come back. If a character's fans care enough about the cut, then they can put the example back and defened, there by proving they are popular enough to deserve to be on the page if not....well then the question answers itself.

But that's the thing, I was under the impression that the majority of the fandom DOES love most of these characters.

If we end up keeping it a separate page, it absolutely positively 100% needs to be a locked page, else the same thing is going to happen again.

Luna and Derpy would be the two I consider the most qualified to be part of it. Even if I personally really don't care about the latter one.

I really don't think the people editing that page represents a majority of the fandom.

edited 29th Jan '12 10:26:25 AM by KennyMan666

Cheerilee, Dr Whooves, Luna, Zecorah, Lyra, Bon Bon, Carrot Top, Derpy, Berry Punch, Trixie should all stay imo

but have you SEEN the amount of fanart, fics and such that these characters have inadvertantly produced?

edited 29th Jan '12 10:27:53 AM by gingerninja666

See The problem is that this a YMMV trope, everyone has a diffrent opinion on what characters count and do not count as being popular side characters, and because of the nature of this fandom, trust me their is a legion of fans behined everyone of those ponies.

If we must trim, then do it, but leave the door open for examples to come back, that we if a characters fans care enough about it they can put the character back up, if they don't then obviously they shouldn't have been on the page in the first place.

This is a fandom that latches onto EVERYTHING.

I agree that we shouldn't be as hasty withadding new examples, and we should probably remove some of the more recent entries (at least until we're confident that they've reached darkhorse status), but don't get rid of the page completely

edited 29th Jan '12 10:31:58 AM by gingerninja666

Then why trim? The page will look the exact same in 2 weeks (it's not like copy pasting from the history is hard). What you propose amounts to doing nothing.

Yes, I have seen the amount of fanart. I frequent ponibooru.

But that alone does not make them Ensemble Darkhorses. It makes them characters that has fans. The sheer size of the pony fandom ensures that a percentage of them are going to take fancy to a character, and thus fanworks are produced. For the same reasons, the size of the fandom, there's going to be people who really DON'T like a new character, but we don't list them all as scrappies for that.

Every Character Has Fans is not a trope. Every Character Has Fans is what the page has become.

We could set some kind of standard or something. I admit I was a bit hasty adding the latest entry about the two "new" background ponies in the latest episode, but I did so thinking it was going to be added anyways.

Which is why this page MUST be a locked page if we keep it separate. Else it's going to turn into Every Character Has Fans again.

Maybe we should add a disclaimer at the top of the page... and and not allow characters from new episodes to be added RIGHT after a new episode comes out.

We don't KNOW that this show isn't going to produce another honest to god Ensemble Dark Horse, so locking the page seems a bit hasty

edited 29th Jan '12 10:36:00 AM by gingerninja666

The argument seems to be that Every Character Has Fans and many of the character now on the page are not as popular as they were when the first appeared. If so then trimming the page and leaving the door open will allow a character with a truly devoted Fans to be put back on, thus proving that they deserve to be on the page. There Is No Such Thing As Notability should apply here, we can't but a "minimum popularity level" on characters, if a character has a lot of fans and is a side character they meet the criteria of Ensemble Dark Horse.

edited 29th Jan '12 10:37:55 AM by LMage

That's exactly why it needs to be locked. So that if a new character comes along that actually honestly qualifies as an Ensemble Dark Horse, when we know that, the effort to contact a mod that can add an entry to a locked page is actually worth going through.

If we fix the page but leave it open we'll be back at square one in a week, because the pony fandom doesn't listen to reason. A disclaimer isn't going to cut it.

The argument is that when everyone is an Ensemble Dark Horse, noone is. Because it needs to have a level of popularity that ACTUALLY makes it stand out from the crowd of characters that all have fanbases.

edited 29th Jan '12 10:40:22 AM by KennyMan666

Exactly! We have NO way of knowing if these characters really have met the standards you speak of or not, and it's a fruitless exercise to even try.

The arguments it would spawn. Are they really worth it?

edited 29th Jan '12 10:40:14 AM by gingerninja666

A) There Is No Such Thing As Notability applies to WORKS and them getting Work pages.

B) Having a single fan devoted enough to make an entry on a single page doesn't make one an Ensemble Dark Horse.

How do they handle things over on the Transformers page? They've got quite a list themselves, though it spans all generations..

edited 29th Jan '12 10:41:34 AM by Calnos

I kinda agree with this. If the fandom cares equally about every character. Then no one's the darkhorse.

Now, Luna and Derpy probably deserve entries, some others especially as the show creators have acknowledged them. But frankly the page right now borders on useless. It's a gushier version of the character page.