Avengers Vs X-Men

Privately owned prisons are a real thing that exists today. An unfortunate truth of any government is that the government isn't made of infinite money; private prisons are a method of lowering budget requirements by bringing a government service into the private sector.

Yes, the guards clearly were in on the lynching. That's not the point. The point is that Jake was in prison when his mutation developed. Tiamatty said that him being there was a stupid idea, but his being there predates his mutation; if a mutant, already in prison, spontaneously develops his mutation in his cell, is it the government's responsibility to go out of their way to make sure he's comfortable? That's assuming they even know there is another mutant in the prison, seeing as he was in his cell when his mutation developed, and as such, his mutation is not documented on any official corrections record.

The point is: you're blaming the government for the actions of a privately owned enterprise, actions that were never, at any point, reported to them. This is like blaming a cop because your sister was murdered, after you never bothered to call and report the kidnapping.

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I had forgotten that Jake was already there. Still, as soon as his mutation developed, the prison should've taken steps to separate him from the general prison population, and to keep him separated. And the government - who'd almost certainly have to be aware of Jake's mutation - should've taken him out of the private prison system and put him somewhere else.

And they certainly never should've sent Scott to a private prison. Even Logan points out how utterly retarded that idea is. There's basically no question that he was sent there to be lynched and killed so that he couldn't go through the courts.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.

Isn't the govern who pays for that prison to do that job, anyway? Also, USA is the fucking biggest super power in the world. Other countries can menage their prisons fine, why can't they? Also, there is certain things you just don't let third parties do for you. That kind of thing is just as absurd as having a private owned police*

. Not to mention the goverment is not made of infinite money, but they sure do expend a lot on certain things such as military and space race. I am aware these thing are important as well, but I find hard to rationalize they should be priority over basic security.

Also, I was ignoring Jake myself. I can see where you are coming from. I believe the plan to mix mutant with regular prisoners *

is a retarded idea, but I could see how Jake's situation was more or less unavoidable*

except the part they were planning to make it a regular thing, I mean

.

My point was not that. My point is the government deliberately put Cyclops there well aware he was a big target. Even if they did not know about the lynching, which is doubtful, they still deliberately placed him where he was most vulnerable and where he is most dangerous.

I mean, what could be possible be the reason to let Cyclops, the leader who assumed full responsibility for his team acts, to go to the less secure facility while keeping Ema Frost isolated? Why the fuck place him where he is both more likely to kill, to be killed and to scape? It just makes no sense. That whole situation is absurd.

edited 15th Nov '12 4:36:08 PM by Heatth

Err...

Hey, you're getting your politics in my comics! *slinks out*

Sorry. It wasn't my intention. That is why the buck of my post was just ignoring that part. It irks me, but it is still not really relevant to the point I was making.

Wasn't specifically talking to you; just boggling at the tendency of people to see politics in fiction where there is none. I mean, before this you had people saying Civil War was an allegory for George Bush, Emperor Palpatine was an allegory for George Bush, Batman was an allegory for George Bush(!?)... there are probably ones that don't have to do with George Bush, but those are the three instances I remember off the top of my head.

The rest of the world doesn't handle its prisons just fine; the United Kingdom was actually the first to instate privately owned prisons. The States just followed suit. They also exist in Israel as well.

I can see your point about sending Scott to a less secure facility than Emma. As the ringleader of the mutant revolution, it probably would be a lot less messy to just have him conveniently disappear than put through the court system. It would also make life a lot easier for the people that followed him; once he's dead, the government could plea bargain the rest by throwing Scott under the bus; blaming him for everything, making the rest of his team accomplices rather than willing proponents.

Contrary to Scott's own plans, he would actually make a better martyr by surviving long enough to stand trial (which would have to happen eventually; even the warden of the private prison noted that he's here temporarily. There's only so long you can hold a prisoner before demands for his trial get to be too much). His trial would almost certainly be a media circus, which would give him a soapbox to stand on. Having him die quietly overnight would be much more efficient way of removing him from the picture, with much less chance of him inciting a violent revolution in the process.

Highly immoral, but very efficient for anyone who isn't Scott. So, yes, it does seem like this is a serious issue that needs to be brought to light. However, it never will be, because Scott launched a jailbreak and has made himself into a dangerous revolutionary in the eyes of the media, villainizing himself to the general public before the government could do so.

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Well, I don't think this is what we have been doing. I think we just have plain gone off-topic by discussing actual politics in a comic book thread. I believe neither of us were actually trying to correlate USA policy on private prisons with the story except by the fact we were talking about private prisons.

So, yeah, I will do a mea culpa here. I think my original post was innocent enough, as I actually deliberately avoiding taking the issue inside my argument. However, I latter went out of line when started arguing about rights and wrongs of private prisons and even bringing some unrelated issues such as US police with their spendings.

So, sorry, my mistake.

Please drop this prison bullshit as well. You were already asked to do so.

They noted in-story it is impossible to make Scott to disappear, thanks to Captain. The "let him die" is supposed to be a last resort plan since just vanishing with him is impossible. And, yes, Scott knows letting him go to trial would be better since, as he noted, it is very hard for him to lose as long as the trial is fair*

. However, it is very clear said trial is hard to happen, as he is likely to get killed first. As you just pointed, it is better for the govern if he dies than if he lives to see his trial.

So, please rephrase you argument, 'cause I didn't follow your point.

As for Scott's jailbreak, I can't believe you fault him for that. It was legit self defense. I can't understand you blaming him for not going right to Cap after that, but I find absurd to the notion one wouldn't try to scape in such situation. It was blatantly obvious the prison did not intent for him to get out of there alive, regardless of the government stance on that matter.

edited 15th Nov '12 4:58:09 PM by Heatth

Oh◊, so the little robot dude goes with Hulk. Huh. I originally thought he'd be paired with Nova.

Also, say what you will about Joe Quesada's skills as an administrator, but don't you ever say the man can't draw.

edited 15th Nov '12 5:12:44 PM by HamburgerTime

He was the one to draw One More Day, right? Yeah the art was literally the best thing of that story.

I didn't have a point. My point was a concession that yes, it was wrong to send him there to die.

But yes, I do fault him for the jailbreak. Having Magneto rip apart the prison to secure his release does not do his cause any favors. Given that he had the ability to communicate with the outside world, it would not have been hard for him to make press accusations that would result in an investigation into the facility.

He made himself the villain in the eyes of the general public. He did so knowingly; Magneto outright says, "Villains it is." when the order is given.

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Oh, okay.

Scott didn't have a reliable way to communicate with the outside world. Sure, sometimes someone pay him a visit, but when will be the next one? He could talk with Magneto but that is worst than useless. Not only no one would ever hear him but it would also cripple Cyclops credibility even further.

Furthermore, I believe you misses why Cyclops is acting the way he is. He have just saw how the new mutants are going to be threated and decided someone needs to do the "dirty job" and go where the law can't go*

. Yeas, he painted himself a "villain"*

though he is an anti-hero at worst

but, as he pointed in-story, he can only do so because he trust Wolverine*

and Cap, I presume

to be the better man and do the P.R. job for him. He knows he is hurting the mutant image, but he believe this is better in the big picture, as it will help more mutants that way.

That said, I do agree the method the jailbreak took place was unnecessary. It did no good for anyone releasing all prisoners along the way.

Well, it was Danger who insisted on freeing all the prisoners. I think Scott probably figured on most of them being kept in their cells, but when they were all released, he just decided he didn't particularly give a shit. Besides which, he knew the Avengers would round them all up.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.

Magneto is exactly the person that could have gone to, say, Captain America and explained what had just happened. That, in and of itself, would have resulted in an investigation that could bring the crimes of the prison to light. As it stands, the warden's been punished in a truly brutal fashion, sure...but everyone involved in that prison is going to walk away unpunished. Everyone.

The official report will probably be: Jake died in a prison riot during a jailbreak caused by escaping terrorist, Scott Summers.

Scott does believe that, in the bigger picture, mutants will be better off for his actions. That doesn't mean he can't be wrong. Every man is the hero of his own story. The best villains are great because they believe themselves to be right; they have the same conviction Scott has to their cause.

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Well, everyone except the warden and the guys who killed Jake. They all got fucked over pretty bad.

I guess Magneto could've gone to Storm, who could've gone to Captain America. No one's going to doubt Storm's word. Of course, it wouldn't change anything. I'm sure Captain America knew why Scott was in that prison, but there was nothing he could do. He just counted on Scott being able to take care of himself.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.

No, Magneto is exactly the person who couldn't go to Cap. He is an wanted man, remember? And a known Mutant supremacist and terrorist. Even if Cap believes him*

with his testimony as the sole proof I doubt there is much Cap can do. The Govern have already gone above him to put Cyclops in that prison in the first place, they can go above him again in such situation. There would be need for more proof than one or two terrorists testimony. Not to mention, of course, Magneto likely has no intention to turn himself in. Furthermore, it is quite likely for Cyclops to just die in the meanwhile, even if there is investigation*

these things take time

.

And, yeah, I was never really arguing Cyclops is right, at last not absolutely. I am against this kind of behavior as default, the same way I am against how the New Avengers acted toward the FBI and Maria Hill in their most recent story arc. It is just I can see Cyclops point of view. Even if I don't totally agree I do see why he do what he does. So, even though I don't believe him to be "right", I don't think he is "wrong" either.

Though, frankly, not being "wrong" is still way better than Wolverine through this whole event.

Ah, yeah, good point. I guess they could try to go to someone else and talk to Cap by proxy. Which wouldn't even need to end with Magneto turning himself in*

. But, in the end, it would still be only Scott's word against the prison. This should be enough for Cap but there is clearly limits to what he can do.

edited 15th Nov '12 6:22:27 PM by Heatth

There's actually a lot Cap can do. The reasons why the government put Scott in that prison wouldn't matter; Jake's death is a smoking gun. The very fact that Jake was murdered would demand an investigation, and without Scott's breakout, there wouldn't be a violent riot to blame it on.

It would not be difficult to prove that Jake was lynched. The prison would be held responsible for the lynching, because they were supposed to be taking care of their prisoners. The media would be all over the place, and famous figure that he is (and, as such, guaranteed ratings for putting him on air), Scott would probably be interviewed several times, allowing him to use the media as a soapbox to present his case. He may even force the government to move him to a more secure penitentiary, and it would be possible that he could even have the entire prison shut down, pending the findings from the investigation.

EDIT: Scott would be guaranteed a trial from all the media attention, and if he played his cards right, he could have the whole nation clamoring for him before he ever even walks into the courtroom.

edited 15th Nov '12 6:42:48 PM by TobiasDrake

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I don't fault Cyclops for the jailbreak. That prison was corrupt to the core. It was good that Magneto brought it down. Scott saw one mutant murdered in front of his eyes, and decided he wasn't having that shit. Good for him.

It should be noted that Cyclops has been in exactly one comic after the jailbreak, and has saved two innocent mutants already. He's doing good things, not villainous things. Isn't that what matters?

Edit: To rephrase, there would be at least two more dead mutants if Scott had waited to go to trial.

Edit again: You know what's bugging me about Uncanny Avengers? Havok is touted as the leader, but they stick him in the corner of all the covers! Cap is always in the center! Either just make him the leader, or stop making it look like he is.

That being said, Havok telling Cap to shut up was pretty cool.

edited 15th Nov '12 7:11:01 PM by gregyo

I've just reread Consequences 4 and realized we are both misremembering a crucial detail*

. Wolverine was there, right after Jake's death. That is when the had their "better man" talk. So, yeah, you are wrong about Jake's death being blamed on Cyclops' jailbreak. The Avengers already know this happened earlier. This also obviously means Cyke don't need to talk with anyone about what happened there either. This will reach Cap's ear already.

So, yeah, my mistake, I guess Jake's lynching is not what convinced Scott to get out. I believe it was his talk with Wolverine, instead. So I concede his jailbreak is less of an act of self preservation as the lynching is, indeed, quite impossible to ignore, with the testimony of an avenger*

.

However, Cyclops escapade was never really about self preservation. He was willing to die a martyr, after all. It is just he believes there is more he can do for the mutantkind instead of being thrown around in the penitentiary system hoping he will live enough to get to a trial*

. But a do now agree the scape is possible of blame, yeah.

edited 15th Nov '12 7:11:20 PM by Heatth

Yes, and how many mutants will die because of anti-mutant fervor that Scott's actions are whipping up? Big picture versus small picture.

Right, the Avengers know what happened, but they don't have the legal ability to do anything. The prison now has a convenient scapegoat in the form of Scott's jailbreak, and that will guarantee the prison immunity from legal consequence.

edited 15th Nov '12 7:12:13 PM by TobiasDrake

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I think the lynching proved that there will be anti-mutant fervor whether Cyclops is saving people or not. Big picture vs. small picture really isn't in play here.

x5

Ooooorrrr . . .

Everything would be swept under the rug. Cap would go to his superiors, they would "take his advisement under consideration," and nothing would be done. The media would give mixed takes on the story. ("The mutant terrorist who nearly destroyed the planet claims a fellow mutant was attacked without provocation, but the human accused of killing the mutant claims it was self-defence, and several other prisoners have corroborated his claim. Here to discuss the altercation are a long-term ally of the mutant terrorist, and a representative for a pro-human religious organization.")

Yeah, I don't think Jake's murder would've been investigated. Nothing would've changed.

edited 15th Nov '12 7:19:48 PM by Tiamatty

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.

Corrupted to core or not, I do agree it is better to try to take the prison out through the proper means. The system is not entirely corrupt, after all, since Cap is part of it.

I don't particularly fault Cyclops either. I personally wouldn't try my luck trying to get out of there when it is clear they are after my head. But I do believe the ideal method is not just brute force.

And, yes, Havok is being pushed way too much to the sidelines. Even worse, he is apparently in the same book as Cap. How the hell he can convince as a leader like that?

Cyclops do that because he believes Wolvie can easy down the hysteria himself*

. Furthermore, it is not like the anti-mutant sentiment doesn't already exist or isn't around at full force. It is very noble to try to get a good P.R. so the anti-mutant sentiment eventually ends by itself, but in the meanwhile there is a bunch of new mutants being harassed and imprisoned and probably lynched. Something got to be done about them as well.

Furthermore, he spend half of his life trying to play the good hero with the hope people would learn. Things only got worst with time. I don't agree myself, but I can see why he would decide it just don't worth trying to reach the utopia. Instead he is trying to save as many people as he can.

Also, I don't understand why the Avengers are less able to do something now that if Cyclop haven't escaped. The jailbreak can't be used as a scapegoat because it happened after the lynching. It was 2 separated crimes.

edited 15th Nov '12 7:21:23 PM by Heatth

I'm actually fine with Havok as leader. In the Ca XF preview, he pulls rank on Cap, and it's great. I'm just tired of Cap looking like the leader on all the covers. Either make him the leader, or make Havok prominent on the covers.

There's precisely one UA cover so far where Alex is the most prominent character. Either push him or don't, Marvel!