The Gun Thread

It's still around I think. A 5.45 version was made for the Ukrainians last I checked. Dunno if they can still take delivery of it considering current conditions there.

The IDF chose a very tiny version of it as their standard rifle. Which think is a bit too small but whatever.

I believe the shortened version still manages to have a decent sized barrel doesn't it?

13" apparently. Though there exists a larger version with a 16.5" barrel.

Even that aside I still say it's far too small. Like that just looks very awkward to hold.◊

The again I can't claim to have ever been remotely close to one so maybe it's less awkward in person.

edited 22nd Sep '15 3:56:13 PM by LeGarcon

Random thought.

I only recently learned that STG 44 is the first assault rifle ever.

Damn, Germans. They have to be among the top 3 when it comes to gun-making.

I've only held (though never fired) a full sized variant but in that picture the discomfort problem looks like it could be solved by adding a forward grip like the gentleman on the right has.

Shouldn't be any worse than your average submachine gun after that.

edited 22nd Sep '15 4:05:08 PM by Canid117

Hahaha, no.

And it could be argued that there were assault rifles long before the StG. The Federov for example.

Possibly but even then I'd say your hands are too close together. At least for my liking.

edited 22nd Sep '15 4:04:03 PM by LeGarcon

As much as I hate to tell you to quit batting for the Russians for a second, the Fedorov was a full-size automatic rifle, and not an assault rifle as per the modern definition, which the Stg44 was. As for Germans being in the top 3, well... That depends entirely on how you want to quantify the top 3.

edited 22nd Sep '15 4:14:05 PM by l3wt

Could be argued. I've also heard it was the first battle rifle than assault rifle.

But then again it did fire one of the smallest cartridges of the era.

I used to shoot 6.5x55 a lot, which I presume to be very similar. While comfy enough to shoot, if you put that in an automatic, muzzle climb and felt recoil would be too severe to fall into intermediate cartridge range.

An automatic rifle is not particularly hard to make. An automatic rifle that can be produced in great enough numbers, in sufficient quality, and at a low enough cost to satisfy military requirements is another story. There were designs, sadly rather incomplete by now, even before the Fedorov - an example would be the Cei-Rigotti, or the British Farquhar-Hill.

edited 22nd Sep '15 4:19:14 PM by Achaemenid

True but all the cartridges then were pretty big. The 6.5mm was as small is it got.

Not really intermediate per se but I'd say it fits the concept of an assault rifle.

The Rigotti has a fixed magazine though, that sort of counts it out as being an assault rifle.

edited 22nd Sep '15 4:20:46 PM by LeGarcon

The concept of the assault rifle requires an intermediate round.

An assault rifle is, as I've stated before, a set of compromises. It supplanted a variety of weapons at different ranges because it's not The Ultimate Weapon for that range, but close enough to work really well regardless, and each troop equipped with one could suddenly perform a wider variety of tasks without having to depend on more specially equipped troops to do the same thing.

The Fedorov, for instance doesn't even come close to fulfilling that compromise.

edited 22nd Sep '15 4:40:17 PM by l3wt

By definition an assault rifle is a selective fire rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine.

Whether the Fedorov is an assault rifle depends on what you think of the 6.5mm Arisaka. It's certainly lighter than the 7.62 Russian and other similar cartridges of the era.

But is it a true intermediate cartridge? Eh, maybe.

There were a few automatic rifles around the same era as the Federov so it isn't exactly unique in and of itself. There were a few other examples of weapons that were almost the first as well but failed in one way or another. Most of them were just full sized rifles firing full sized cartridges. They were also not really designed as individual weapons but squad level or higher support weapons. That includes both the Fedrov and the BAR. All full sized rapid fire rifles. To add to that Fyodorov designed it along similar lines of thought that led to the BAR and was intended to be a light weight machine gun like weapon rather then something every trooper carried.

While 6mm rifle was a bit easier to control then 7mm family the overall difference is not that great as they are still full sized rifle bullets and cartridges and everything that implies. Take a good look at the 6mm Arisaka rifle bullet. It isn't exactly a small light weight cartridge and round. It fires a over 130 grain bullet at 2,500 feet per second. Your going to feel that.

It was the intermediate cartridges that made the smaller select fire rifles possible. Really the fact that the German's rolled out with the STG-44 before other examples of similar structure could be fielded is more about luck and circumstances of the time. There were a few examples that were almost the first before the Germans including a select fire US M-1 Carbine.

edited 22nd Sep '15 5:35:04 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Colt Defense and FN have been granted a $212 million DOD contract for M4s that will last until 2020.

A US soldier shot himself while target shooting a .50 handgun due to the recoil resulting in a second discharge.

More and more M4s. Going to be a lot of surplus left over once they finally decide to switch the damn things out.

But that would involve the Do D actually changing things.

Once LSAT takes off they probly will. There are National Guard armories with M-1's and M-16s and M-16A1's still on the books and locked up. Some are ceremonial, others are just leftovers.

A lot will be dumped on allies who can't afford LSAT or just need cheap rifles: Mexico, Asia, the Middle East, Africa (maybe).

And this Cold/FN contract is per order. So each batch they have to keep costs down. This is Colt's to lose. Being near/at bankruptcy they can "keep costs down", but Colt can still snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

If LSAT takes off. There have been a half dozen attempts to replace the AR platform and they always end the same way.

General 1: "Hey that competition was fun."

General 2: "Yeah. Lets toss a much cheaper and simpler upgrade onto the AR platform."

LSAT isn't an AR platform and the branches have already showed some willingness to drop the M-249 which LSAT is meant to replace.

There are multiple LSAT platforms. One is an assault rifle meant to replace the AR platform while the other is a Machine Gun meant to replace the M249.

The only platforms that actually exist is one LMG which recently underwent live testing. They only got the money to begin the actual development and research for any additional small arms last year. Right now there is exactly one LSAT weapon in the works that might see any future use at all that is near LRIP. Of the other weapons One hasn't made it to any further testing because the ammo is still under development, AR's development and funding for it just started last year, and also just started work on a 7.62mm weapon likely meant to replace the M-240. The only thing we have seen for rifles is mock ups they literally only have initial work on a mechanism. See bottom

It is a long way off from ever being an actual concern for replacing carbines or rifles at this point.

Plus if the DoD was desperate to can the M4 they wouldn't keep killing the proposed replacement programs.

Colt Defense receives 212m USD contract through to 2020.

Someone in Washington likes them.