Not very Japanese at all: Useful Notes.Japanese Stock Phrases

Question: Does "Bring it on!", "Wait a minute!", or "That's impossible!" sound very Japanese to you?

A lot of these phrases sound perfectly normal in English conversation.

For starters, the link you are looking for is UsefulNotes.Japanese Stock Phrases

Secondly, this is a Useful Notes page about the Japanese Language, not a trope.

Thirdly, かかってこいよ and the rest don't sound very English to me. What is being documented is the Japanese term. The translations are simply there for the benefit of the English language reader.

edited 17th Jan '12 8:42:24 AM by Catbert

That's the line that's bothering me. A lot of them certainly don't sound very English, but a lot of them do as well, which bugs me.

Of course that the English translations sound English- that's the entire point of translation. The end result must be a valid sentence in the language you are translating into. That doesn't mean those are not Japanese stock phrases.

Yeah, I Am Your Opponent is completely valid English phrase and sure it can appear in English work. But the point is that it will appear in every other manga with those exact words and pretty much the same context.

Seriously what do you propose we do? Throw out those phrases that you deem "to English"?

I don't see the problem. They are stock phrases, mostly from shonen/shojo series.

While some of this phrases certainly are "Statistically Improbable Phrases" a lot of them aren't.

Why is this specifically Japanese? This phenomenon occurs with every language in translation. There will always be phrases that have unnatural-sounding literal translations in another language — it's just a fact of linguistic diversity.

edited 17th Jan '12 1:26:14 PM by Marshmello

Because it is about Japanese Stock Phrases, therefore it is specifically Japanese.

If it were about Spanish Stock Phrases, I'm sure it would have some Spanish information.

This isn't like Gratuitous English where you have a universal trope writen like a Useful Notes pages on Japanese language. This is a Useful Notes pages on the Japanese language, written as such, used as such, named as such, in the correct namespace and on the correct index.

Would it make anyone happier is I simply change the description to say that sometimes some translations of some phrases result in phrases that sound unusual in English?

The heart of this page is Exactly What It Says on the Tin. Common phrases in Japanese Media.

Also, anticipating the "We don't do stock phrases anymore" argument: The actual rule is that stock phrases are not considered tropes. This isn't a trope, therefore that concern isn't applicabple.

edited 17th Jan '12 4:49:47 PM by Catbert

There is nothing wrong with this page.

Can we lock this thread and go home now?

At least we dont have an entire index of these like say the english ones?

Useful Notes aren't meant to hold trope material with a different name. This isn't what Useful Notes is meant for. It's not a trope. It's something we're specifically trying to cut from the wiki. I'm not sure how shoving it into a Useful Notes pages makes it something to keep around.

How can it be "trope material" but "not a trope" at the same time?

No, it isn't a trope. It has never been a trope. It was never intended to be a trope. If you look at the online history, you will see that it was originally part of the "cultural notes" section, that included among other things language information, like what this is. Those eventually became the foundation of what is now the Useful Notes section.

The content of this page is appropriate for Useful Notes material. I don't see any need to take action on it.

Is there something else to do/say here, or should this be locked?

Well the argument that some of these phrases aren't actually improbably hasn't been addressed yet.

What argument? Of course, 'Bring it on!' is not Japanese. It's the English translation of a phrase used ad nauseum in Japanese media. However, leaving 'kakatte koi' on the page without a translation is not very informative. Hence, 'Bring it on!'.

I guess I don't see the issue here.

I redid the description just a bit so that people won't think is is only about improbable phrases.

Not seeing an issue. Could maybe trim a few phrases, but that's it.

I don't think there is even reason to trim phrases. The idea of Useful Notes page is to provide information. Removing information detracts from that.

That's more of an "if there's a strong argument for it" than to just go and do it. There is no strong argument for it thus far.

Is everyone statisfied with my modification of the description? I simply began the description with brief statement about what the page was about, and moved all the stuff about statistically improbable phrases down the the section at the bottom about translation artifacts.

I like it. If no one has any problems with its current state, or nothing to add, I think we should lock this.