This needs some serious reworking.: Token Loli

I don't particularly believe Tony is arguing in good faith, but for the benefit of the audience:

• A tag along kid is secondary character, often with little relevance to the plot, who exists for the target demographic to identify with. Algy from Biggles is a tag along kid.
• A token loli — or whatever term is less likely to make people convulse with Internet Outrage — is a primary character, often treated identically to the adults in every sense but height, who exists for the audience to go "d'awwwww" at. Eiko from Final Fantasy IX is a... whatever term will prevent you from burning with Generic Fury.

Some people are convinced this is connected to 'wank material' because squirrels live in their brains.

((EDIT: however many it was. You guys post fast o.o) We have an entire Porn Tropes index, IIRC.)

I'm all for "Token Moe Child". And possibly merging this with Cute Shotaro Boy, because it has the exact same problem.

But there's just no two ways about the fact that the words "loli" and "shota" are both Japanese for "pedobait". =/

edited 15th Jan '12 11:17:52 PM by Pig_catapult

It's not the same thing as Cute Shotaro Boy but Cute Shotaro Boy IS being misude for a "Shotaro", the Spear Counterpart to "Loli", like some people used Token Loli for Loli, because no one will let us make a page about them.

edited 15th Jan '12 11:21:46 PM by NoirGrimoir

(responding to an earlier post)
Because, once again, "loli" doesn't have direct sexual connotation. It may be derived from a sexual term, and may've had it initially, but it does not now.

It does have Moe connotation, which may be sexualised by some people.

removed personal attack

edited 16th Jan '12 1:50:09 AM by FastEddie

Cute Shotaro Boy is about a really cute kid in an adult situation like holding a job saving the world and such.

Becky from Pani Poni Dash, Negi from Negima, Shotaro from Gigantor... those types. (its being made gender neutral as well.)

edited 15th Jan '12 11:25:32 PM by Raso

If you're not an anime fan, it seems to mean something else.

Which brings us to the question of, is this even a "predominantly anime" trope, to warrant the anime fandom term?

Even among anime fans, there's a large contingent for whom Loli only means pedo bait. There's a small subsection of one fandom that has the name mean something else, but it's almost never divorced from kiddie porn when you aren't talking about fashion.

It's a primarily-Japanese trope because non-Japanese pedophiles aren't pandered to as openly.

Not to mention that more non-anime fans are going to know about Lolita as a work of art—with all the implications that entails—than they are about its possible non-sexual connotations (which are sparse, compared to its sexual connotations).

We're theoretically supposed to be writing for everyone, not just anime/manga fans.

Lovely.

This is one of those conversations that makes me call into question whether or not it's good or bad that I don't get to see or read much Japanese fiction...

edited 15th Jan '12 11:34:31 PM by Flyboy

Does it really, or are you assuming?

edited 15th Jan '12 11:34:40 PM by OneMore

Japanese stuff is just as victim to Sturgeon's Law as media made in other countries. EDIT: It's just that, when it is bad, it tends to be bad in different ways.

edited 15th Jan '12 11:37:52 PM by Pig_catapult

It really does. I know this because I'm actually a huge anime fan and in all the fandom circles I've hung out in, that was what the word meant.

Anyway, are there any objections against renaming and leaving it at that?

A lot of talk in this topic seems to evolve about defining/redefining/arguing about redefining of the L-word, without actually adressing the problem, whatever it is.

edited 15th Jan '12 11:59:33 PM by OneMore

I support the rename but wonder at whether "moe" is the appropriate term if it's not an anime-exclusive trope.

We're supposed to be shifting away from anime fanspeak names in the English wiki, remember? Or was that dropped in my absence from TRS?

• Tag Along Kid: A child that acts like a child tags along with a bunch of adults.
• This trope: A character that looks like (but is not always) a child, and acts like an adult is a member of a group of adults and is treated the same as the adults are.

According to Really 700 Years Old, everywhere. They show up all over the place in media.

Hm. If the focus is on the "young person (or person who appears to be young) among adults who is treated like an adult," why is the "moe" aspect focused on in the name, if it's not the cuteness that matters, but the youth?

Or is the fact that they're young the "justification" for the cuteness?

The fact that they look young is justification for the cuteness.

"How often can you really find adults that look like children anyway?"

They are cartoon characters.

Alright, well, let's see...

On the one hand, we're supposed to use English names on the English wiki (unless this was changed?).

On the other hand, I can't come up with a way to say it in pure English that isn't exceptionally wordy...

Sometimes it verges on "purge anything non-English, even if it's justified or better than any English equivalent". At least it looks so for me. (I'm Russian, btw)

edited 16th Jan '12 12:26:07 AM by OneMore