This needs some serious reworking.: Token Loli

I'm afraid I don't see how that answers my question.

I'm not trying to be awkward here, really I'm not, but even setting aside Western works, paedophilia is recognised as deplorable and wrong in Japan, too, and the description claims that the interest in these characters is not always sexual. It talks about protectiveness, which sounds like more of a moe thing to me.

It's complicated. Japan does frown on pedophilia, and lolicon is not really publicly acceptable or admissible. I guess it's like how we enjoy action movies even though people disapprove of hunting or gun ownership, perhaps.

There are two ways of playing out the trope. One way is the cuteness -> sexy thing, which is pretty simple, though I don't really get the reasons behind why it happens. The other way is that yes, they can simply be designed to be cute and protectiveness inducing. However, due to the way that Japan appears to view cuteness, I really don't believe these are that distinct a lot of the time. I don't think this trope is present outside of Japan, nor is 'loli' in general. Moe is, after all, at least a little sexual in nature.

If this doesn't at least partially answer your question, I'm afraid I'm not entirely sure I know what your question is. Does this trope appear outside of Japan? No. Does Loli? Not really. Do little girls appear outside of Japan where they are basically just there to be cute? I'd say yes, but the presentation is different enough to be a different trope.

edited 15th Jan '12 11:39:25 AM by Arha

In America (probably other English-speaking countries?), the name "Lolita" is strongly associated with pedophilia. It doesn't matter if "Loli" means something else in Japan, I don't think, if that has sexual connotations elsewhere and no such connotation is meant by the title.

I guess that answers my question. It also reminds me of how little I understand about Japanese culture, though.

If that's really the case, then I can see the argument in favour of the name; it's distasteful, but the trope itself has pretty Unfortunate Implications.

I don't really get it either and I watch a lot of anime and whatnot. I just know it happens.

In any case, people have contested the description. What do we want to do with that? I feel that that should come before any cleanup, whether of plain misuse (Japanese or not, Higurashi is not an example) or of misuse via coming from sources that this trope doesn't appear in. I would also try and argue for the creation of the supertrope to this, but that's not going to happen, I'm sure.

I really think just focusing on the moe aspects is the easiest way to go. Yes, sometimes the cuteness is fetishtized, but that's not specific to this trope, that's a general moe thing.

Also not seeing the need for a rename. With the obvious exception of h-sites, I've only ever heard loli used to refer to cute little girls (or people who look like cute little girls). Again, yeah, some people are turned on by that, but we don't have to mention it.

Yeah, might be a good idea. I tend to focus on that part of the trope because it bothers me, which is one reason why I'm not offering much about the description.

If it's not always sexual, perhaps it needs to be split to differentiate the two?

I swear I thought we'd got rid of this already. 'Loli' is not an acceptable synonym for 'young girl.' I'll zap this crap, so we don't get into another month-long shouting match over it.

edited 15th Jan '12 3:52:03 PM by FastEddie

How did I know this was going to happen.

Fine. You don't like the preestablished term. Can we at least rename the damn thing instead of cutting it entirely?

Whether or not the trope is sexual, the word Loli is. Regardless of what it means to fans of Japanese works.

Eddie?

You specifically ruled that Token Loli would stay while all the other "Loli" tropes would go.

The reason being that "Loli" has a sexualized implication, which is accurate for the Token Loli trope but was not accurate for the other "Loli" tropes.

What I want to know is why was it unlocked? I thought Token Loli was locked at the end of that discussion.

Sigh... already cut.

edited 15th Jan '12 3:59:30 PM by Sackett

I'll put the text into a sandbox so it can be recrafted so as to not use that revolting term.

Here we go, with a suggested name: Sandbox.Token Girl

edited 15th Jan '12 4:02:34 PM by FastEddie

can you redirect it too so things linked to it go to the new place? Currently have a broken link on a few pages I'm working on.

edited 15th Jan '12 4:17:51 PM by bulmabriefs144

"Loli" is used IN UNIVERSE, in A LOT of works in anime and manga, to prove it's an established term. This isn't arbitrary, we didn't make it up. It's real.

And unless it's something that is hentai and/or Lolicon, most lolis aren't actually pre-pubescent, they just look it. There are character that are freaking 30 but because of the way they are drawn, they look 12 and qualify as lolis. It's often lampshaded in-universe.

edited 15th Jan '12 4:05:52 PM by NoirGrimoir

Too fucking bad. That is their problem, not ours.

WHY is the name "Loli" a problem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita

(Which is amazingly well-written, one of my top ten favorite books. But the word is strongly associated with pedophilia. A shortened version of it is an inappropriate synonym for cute young girl.)

edited 15th Jan '12 4:09:11 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Why do we keep names like The Oner when they're opaque as all hell because they're supposedly preestablished terms, but one as vastly used as loli has to go immediately with no discussion whatsoever?

Because The Oner is not offensive.

I know what a Lolita is, don't insult my intelligence. That's where the term originated from. But Loli and Lolita are not the same word. Loli invoking the idea of Lolita is helpful in that it does have something to do with the word Lolita, but they are different words, which separates them.

• Lolita: an young girl who is preyed upon and has sexual relations with an adult man.
• Loli: a character in anime that has a pettanko-body type and looks like and often acts like a child.
• Token Loli: A single Loli added to an otherwise normal/older cast to round out a harem and appeal to moe and fanservice.

Loli is heavily used across all Japanese works and is untranslated it does not mean what you think it means... and is not offensive.

edited 15th Jan '12 4:16:34 PM by Raso

Yes. The relevant point is what the word means to people other than fans of Anime (etc).

That doesn't matter for this its strictly a Japanese trope. So is say Elegant Gothic Lolita which does not mean sexual at all.

It is a preexisting term for preexisting things and is not offensive at all.

(also Cute Shotaro Boy.)

edited 15th Jan '12 4:18:13 PM by Raso

Yes, well, you're obviously offended, but the people that actually use the word are not offended, and by getting rid of references to the word loli you lose a great deal of meaning with whatever substitute you put in. Would you like to name the trope Token Little Girl Added To Appeal To Those Japanese Pedophile Scum Lower Than What You Wipe Off Of Your Shoe?

The trope doesn't appear outside of Japanese works in the first place. Everywhere else they're just some kid that falls into one of who knows how many unrelated tropes.

edited 15th Jan '12 4:18:05 PM by Arha