Pink♥Chainsaw
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This, This world doesn't need anymore bigotry and it truly is staggering that this shit happens. Let the bigots starve to death, it's the only way they'll learn not to kill people for something they can't control.
He didn't say it was genetic.
edited 8th Dec '11 2:03:08 PM by PinkHeartChainsaw
"If there is a hole then it's a man's job to thrust into it" - Ryoma from New Getter Robo
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
In the case of oppressive regimes, we should send arms to rebel groups, not aid to the government. If the country's citizens vote to be fascistic puritans, they can starve. If they have an oppressive and fascistic government, they can overthrow it or starve.
You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
Decemberist
Savage Heathen, last time the USA armed a bunch of rebels, Bin Laden happened.
Dutch Lesbian
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
They were the wrong sort of rebels: Avoid arming social conservatives and things will work out alright.
You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
Decemberist
Like in Somalia?
The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
Pink♥Chainsaw
Yes, but "Civil Partnerships" aren't recognized in most countries while marriage is nigh-universally accepted. That and Civil Partnerships don't give you tax-benefits. Marriages do.
We're Having All The Fun
Legally, marriage is an act of the state and the state alone. Churches can hold ceremonies for newly-wed people, but they are not the ones who actually do the marrying. There is a need for an equality for gays in regard to marriage because to do otherwise is arbitrary discrimination and that's not a cool thing for the government to do.
All I do, is sit down at the computer, and start hittin' the keys. Getting them in the right order, that's the trick.
The point of "equal marriages" or whatever you want it for gays is that right now gays can't join in a legal union in most states and get the same benefits that straight people do when they marry. Also, it's not entirely religious, as I'm sure plenty of atheists get married and you can choose to simply stand before a judge to get it all on paper rather than having a big ceremony with a priest. It is very much a legal union, with paper work and legal work that needs to be filled out.
Savage, that's fucking stupid. We can't just hand guns willy-nilly to rebels just because they're rebelling. And one group might just be as socially conservative as another in a particular area of life, like gay's rights. Also, doing political stuff like this might just be more effective in the long run. The most violent solution usually isn't the best.
edited 8th Dec '11 2:17:54 PM by AceofSpades
Decemberist
PHC, IIRC, the ones in the United Kingdom do.
Dutch Lesbian
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
Why not? Guns are sold willy-nilly to governments: While rebels ain't no saints themselves, most countries with active armed rebellions are oppressive hellholes that could use some revolution to begin with.
Unless the rebels are authoritarian fascists/fundies, they're typically less evil than the Govt.
edited 8th Dec '11 2:22:12 PM by SavageHeathen
You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Savage, you are aware that homophobic attitudes are often a result of inadequate education, yes? In other words, poorer countries with worse infrastructure are more likely to be homophobic, as are poorer social groups within a society.
Religious fundamentalism is by no means exclusively a poor man's disease, but being poor and uneducated certainly increases your chances of infection.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Yeah, no. I'd rather we didn't sell any arms to anyone abroad, but as it is they're usually obeying international laws. Also, trying to foment rebellion in another country smacks of overt imperialism these days, which the US really shouldn't be engaging in.
Frankly, Africa is a quagmire, and any military help there is fine if it goes through the UN. Food and other non military aid I'm fine with, but we've messed up enough times to know that the US typically isn't that great and interference on our own.
edited 8th Dec '11 2:26:49 PM by AceofSpades
Decemberist
Savage, when a revolution has real support of the masses, they almost always win, with or without foreign aid. That's why interventions in revolutions and internal conflicts of other nations are undesirable.
edited 8th Dec '11 2:40:36 PM by MilosStefanovic
The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
We're Having All The Fun
Why should Churches be able to discriminate against minorities?
All I do, is sit down at the computer, and start hittin' the keys. Getting them in the right order, that's the trick.
Cold.
Freedom of Association and Freedom of Religion.
Sex, Drugs, and Rationality
We're Having All The Fun
The right to gather with like-minded peers and the right to have a religion of your choice? What's the point you're making?
@ Yeah; as a group any one church has that right. As an individual, a priest has the right to refuse to officiate a ceremony for a gay couple. As a state, the government and state should be affording gays the same rights and legal complication/ties to gay people as to straight people. Because they are not a religion, the are the organization we use to make sure people's rights are protected.
but the state can't force a church to hold weddings for gays. Or to make anyone to have a religious ceremony.
edited 8th Dec '11 2:39:38 PM by AceofSpades
We're Having All The Fun
If I am not mistaken, private business does not have the right to discriminate against minorities so why should religion be able to?
All I do, is sit down at the computer, and start hittin' the keys. Getting them in the right order, that's the trick.
Pink♥Chainsaw
@Yeah Because of the 1st ammendment. Why the hell would a discriminated minority go to a church that discriminates them is a question I will never be able to figure out. If you want to be a christian without having to change what is natural to you then I would recommend Unitarian Universalism.
Because Religion and Business are different, even though most of the time you can confuse them.
edited 8th Dec '11 2:42:23 PM by PinkHeartChainsaw
"If there is a hole then it's a man's job to thrust into it" - Ryoma from New Getter Robo
A church is not the same thing as a business. Also, there's that little thing that declares Separation of Church and State, in which neither can officially force the other to do something. We don't have a state religion saying how things have to be, and the state can't force a priest or church organization to do something that goes against what they believe is right.
Businesses can't discriminate because the state is ensuring equality of opportunity in that case. The state can't force a church to do the same thing because that's interfering in religious freedom. Luckily, these days gays have a somewhat easier time of finding churches that do officiate at gay weddings.
We're Having All The Fun
OK, so how are religions and businesses any different except from the fact that there are no share-holders for religious institutions? And saying that people should just go to a different church is tantamount to saying that if gays want to get married, they should just go to a different country which has gay marriage.
Edit:
Well, why are religions free from anti-discrimination laws whereas businesses are not. What makes a religious institution worthy of exemption from law?
edited 8th Dec '11 2:48:11 PM by YeahBro
All I do, is sit down at the computer, and start hittin' the keys. Getting them in the right order, that's the trick.
Proud Canadian
It's because religions are long-standing social traditions. Time and pervasiveness.
It is fortunate that fundamentalism isn't actually genetic.