Alright, if nothing else I think it's at the very least clear how difficult a situation we're in with regards to fox. Normally this would be the point where us mods would step in and come to a consensus decision, taking into account everyone's thoughts and feelings about all this.

Except...we haven't been able to.

Us mods have tried for several days to come to a decision about what to do about fox, whether to uphold his ban or allow him one last chance, but we haven't been able to arrive at something that all of us agree on. In law terms, we're a hung jury.

We're not fond of just giving up since this is supposed to be our responsibility — it's been frustrating for all three of us that we could not come to a consensus judgement. But none of us can see any resolution that isn't unfair to one side or the other, whether it's to fox or to those that had been wronged by him. So...we're going to ask you guys to help us out here. We can give our individual thoughts and positions about this whole situation, and then see if, through discussions, we can work out a solution that maybe won't be perfect but at least everyone can get behind.

go ahead

UN JOUR JE SERAI DE RETOUR PRÈS DE TOI

Guess I can start.

I don't know what to think about this situation. At the start of this, I thought that fox ought to be given another chance because the way I understood it it seemed like this was a case of things spiralling out of control. In the normal common channels we all share it didn't seem like to me that things had gotten so far out hand as to warrant a ban. I also wasn't fond of the idea of "finishing the execution" just because it apparently got botched, especially one that took place before I and the other current mods took up this responsibility. But that was before I learned about the extent in which fox's actions had hurt other people in this community, intentional or unintentionally, both before and after this Schrodinger's Situation had come about. The initial meetings we've arranged between fox and those that wanted to give him a chance didn't turn out well, insofar as no one's opinions had changed. And from what I've seen posted on here, it doesn't seem like those who have been hurt are able to just ignore it, and asking them to do that for the sake of fairness is also not fair.

If we rescind the ban a lot of people will feel their feelings don't matter and will always have this grudge not only to fox but to everyone else who pushed for it. If we uphold the ban a lot of people will feel that the whole thing was rigged from the get-go and that fox wasn't given a fair shake because of the circumstances that caused this situation to come into being in the first place. And from what I can see, no middle ground exists that doesn't just result in everyone being unhappy — Golden Mean Fallacy is more likely here from my POV.

I feel like I'm about to be fucked from both ends with a pike here.

Edited by megarockman on Jan 19th 2020 at 1:42:24 PM

If the opinions are flat out unchanging in response to Fox, is there a possibility of something like a permanent addendum that Fox can't interact with those people anymore, and can't get involved with stuff they're directly in the middle of in the threads?

If he does anything they're not comfortable with, then it can immediately be brought up to the mods. A sort of "You have one shot. If you try anything, you're out" thing.

It'd give Fox a chance to truly show that he has changed, and the people that suffered from his actions will be safe knowing that he cannot interact with them without their consent without suffering consequences.

With the RP, the current GM can act as a sort of middle man, consulting with Fox and the various others, and they'll work with the players to avoid the two getting too involved with one another in the plot. It can be as simple as talking to both groups, and saying "Hey, the characters have free time to roam around, what are you thinking about having them doing", getting their responses, and if they don't match, then going ahead with it.

If there end up being shared locations between Fox and at least one player he's not supposed to be around, then there can be some more serious discussion. Ask what the plan is for them going there, and if it could be accomplished elsewhere, perhaps nudge someone in those directions.

And the people that don't mind interacting with Fox can bring something up as well, if he does something that either goes against the sentiment of leaving those people alone (Saying something bad about them in DMs), saying something insensitive about the players in the server if he were there, or something of that nature.

He will have to avoid flat out interacting with them in the server, if he rejoined. If he has something he wants to talk about, the players will not have to interact with him if they have a problem with him.

It will come down to how Fox abides these rules, and how well the troubled players simply cease acknowledging his presence, perhaps even blocking him on Discord if need be.

A big point of this is also making sure the players that were hurt by Fox are having their feelings and opinions taken seriously. We try to help them out with that in the RP, we respect and understand their decision to cease all interaction with Fox, and there's constant reassurance that "Don't worry, if something starts lining up with Fox, we can help you out and give suggestions. You don't have to be around him if you're not comfortable."

I don't know if this idea is any good, but it came to mind.

What do some of you think? I think, if I were in a similar situation, that I would be willing to try it. Of course, I have not been in the situations you guys have.

Edited by CrystalMemoria on Jan 19th 2020 at 3:22:25 AM

Sorry for not responding right away, I was putting my end off the last few days so I could cobble my thoughts together and catch up on work. I figured I'd be writing this all day, and I was pretty right about that and wasn't looking forward to it. I've been mostly sick, then tired, and then stressed out while trying to deal with this, so that's why I've mostly been out the last couple weeks.

I do understand how most everyone else feels, though. I understand we should be a community that espouses second chances, and that this shouldn't be a decision that relies on so few to dictate, and that the evidence towards Fox making a positive change and generally having calmed down over his power play tendencies looks to be pretty legit. I won't dismiss the concessions he's tried to make towards the others either. I won't dismiss that he's tried to bury what hatchets he could with the others.

But even with all this in mind, I can't agree with passing judgement that reintegrates Fox with the community without sorting these remaining hangups out.

We've never used how comfortable anyone feels about someone as the benchmark for whether a player should stay or go, no. There is usually an actual offense and violation of the rules involved. But in a case where we have people who feel this bad about a person, I feel I have to value how they feel. I can't agree with solutions that essentially tell everyone who opposes Fox to just put up with him while we put him on probation or something in the server if they aren't ready to do that. At most, I can ask everyone that does oppose him to pinpoint why they can't stand to let him back in, and maybe we can work from there. I don't know, round two of mediations I guess. We weren't involved in the majority of them to begin with that way both parties could be free to discuss anything private and personal without us looming over their shoulders.

But what are we meant to do when mediations don't pan out? In a normal case, we can suspend people who aren't being cooperative, but not a single part of me thinks it'd be fair to do that when the people who oppose Fox have legitimate reason and discomfort preventing them from being cooperative. I'm stuck between trying to respect how people feel on both ends of the spectrum.

On a related tangent, I've been asked why we aren't giving Fox any chances here when we've given a similar player plenty. I've been asked why we keep giving this player room to change when the attitudes they give in public channels don't really indicate that they have. I've been hard thinking about my response to this for weeks. I'd rather not name this player right now since they haven't come forward in this discussion, but I won't deny that they're really relevant to this case. My mind's been drifting back to them during this case even without this question hanging over my head.

In my opinion, this player has managed to stay on because they've always tried to own up to the problems they're involved in. They've tried to fix their behavior, and they've always tried to mend what they can with others. They've usually never been content with thinking they simply can't get along with everyone, and we've tried our damnedest to convince them otherwise whenever they thought they couldn't.

That's why I at least have been convinced this player could keep getting chances. They didn't half give up on the community and cut themselves off, they tried to actively recognize when there was something wrong and tried to fix it. Even if you make the argument that the issues they made were more personal, or they weren't seeing the other side appropriately, and even if the way they handled various issues varied between "good" and "really poor," they still tried to fix their problems all the time.

I'm still not answering for Norm and Mega, but that specific difference, on top of respecting how others feel, is what keeps me personally from giving Fox another chance. Fox cut himself off from everyone without confronting the reason why he did that. Fox did not display, at any point until now, a desire to change or apologize for the behavior that made him think he'd be better off a hermit. Not in his private server, and certainly not anywhere I could see. I waited as patiently as I could for two years for him to come to any kind of personal epiphany, to see if he could realize his position wasn't good and if he could inspire change within himself. I wanted to believe he could see the absurdity of holing himself away from everyone and just letting things lie without any external prompting. But this desire to change only occurred after we brought up someone who couldn't deal with their unresolved tension. After we brought up that we were aware of his blatantly disrespectful attitude towards another player. Some people need that extra push to change, sure. But when the issue at the time was pretty big, and we had to push two years after the fact, that doesn't inspire confidence in me to give him a second chance.

To sum all that up

I hear what you guys are saying for why we should give Fox another chance. But, I can't give my okay for it because I consider the feelings of everyone who opposes Fox to be just as valid, and I personally cannot feel very confident in Fox knowing we had to be responsible for prompting the majority of his change.

---

I have no decent transition into my next point, so I just want to backtrack a little to make something clear. While I believe we've given That Unnamed Player plenty of chances because they've tried to own up to their problems, I will be the first to say I'm not very pleased with how all these chances have been used. I'm not airing all that laundry here because that's not what we're here for, but they know we want the grudges held between other players to end. They know they aren't supposed to rant at other players over slights that they're perceiving. They know the players they're grudging want to bury the hatchet, and need to realize we don't want to specifically take anyone's side, we're picking the solutions that best regards how everyone feels and how everyone will interact.

---

And to respond to Crystal, I don't feel good about that solution. Again, I can't approve of Fox being reintegrated until we appropriately deal with how others feel about him, and I don't feel good about a solution that is effectively "just ignore him."

I want to know what is appropriate for resolving these issues between Fox and the people who counter him. If we do a mediation, what are we seeking out of it? In respect to how people opposing Fox feel, what's fair?

mario is red, i am green, i try my best, but everyone's mean

Sorry, it was just an idea that came to mind. I've had to do similar things in the past with rough patches involving people, and generally it ended up OK for me.

I was trying to support both sides of the party, giving them acknowledgement and support, while also avoiding future problems.

But I understand if you're not happy with the idea. It was the only thing I could think of that could even remotely take both sides into consideration probably with a potential middle ground that people might be happy with.

I kinda wanna say something, so here goes:

I don't know how deeply all this runs, but we have to remember that not everything will work for everyone. Personally, given what everyone's said so far, I would be stuck about what to do if I were in any of the mods' shoes.

For what it's worth, the idea that Fox would "just" be ignored by the people that he's wronged is a bit of an oversimplification of what Crystal's suggesting.

And maybe he can't just be ignored, which is why this situation has gotten to where it is. However, Fox kinda dug a hole for himself by, if I'm putting it bluntly, hiding away in his own Discord server. So I wouldn't be surprised if the decision was to effectively ban him from the community as a whole.

As Riv pointed out, it's effectively a two-way street. If Fox can't be bothered to try and make amends personally until recently, then why even bother having this discussion?

However, if he is trying his damnedest to improve, then we should hear him out. Crystal isn't suggesting that we just ignore him, you guys have waited long enough to hear anything back.

Part of this discussion is voicing our own individual opinions, of course, so perhaps it would be best to draw up a tally of sorts to see who would actually agree with Crystal's suggestion as a starting point.

Because honestly, this silence is getting pretty deafening.

Spelunking through a Halo Ring is something else...

I have a response, but I've been burned out lately by all the stuff going on around me. Today we're getting incredibly hazardous amounts of dust and fire is threatening the city's airport. Earlier in the week my workplace was smashed up by a severe storm with golfball-sized hail. And for the last two months the city's had more days covered in smoke than not. Climate anxiety is omnipresent in my life.

I don't feel in a state to handle this just yet. Most evenings I come home and huddle up. I'll get onto this as soon as I have the will.

What if there’s no better word than just not saying anything?

Alright let me try my best with this.

Due to general stress as a mod, I had originally stepped out of the decision-making in regards to Fox and kept my involvement very sparse. I gave passive consensus to any to conclusion Riv and Mega could reach on this incredibly complex and emotionally fraught issue.

In limiting my part in the decision-making, I feel I've contributed to a decision that didn't reflect the full breadth and depth of Fox's matter, and limited avenues of consideration. I'm interested in correcting that now.

It is important that the dispute mods and our decisions remain open to challenge and healthy discussion, to foster trust. That means respecting players and seeking fair consensus. I am not reopening the debate just so Fox can get back in - I have no particular stake in him personally, but I am concerned by the number of people who feel that the mods have acted unfairly.

I don't recall a previous decision that led to this kind of disjunction between players, and it's a sign that I and the other mods have not adequately fielded concerns. This is a difficult balancing act, between a number of players interested in reopening the discussion and Fox being offered another chance, and a smaller but passionate number who are worried about the decision being reversed.

I think the best way forward is to adopt an approach that favours neither outcome, and focuses on finding a fairer metric for judging Fox's right to return. Whether he comes back or not isn't my concern, it is re-affirming trust and cooperation between players and mods to come up with the right procedure.

The exact procedure, we mods haven't been able to agree on. I raised the idea of a probationary period, but looking at it that doesn't seem an appropriate measure that respects those who feel wary around Fox. What I would like to see is a deeper, more involved discussion over the long term, organised and supervised by the mod team, with those in question. This will likely take months, or the better part of the year if there are communication problems, but I think it will be rigorous enough to lead to a decision that not everyone may agree with, but everyone agreed was pursued fairly.

This is definitely the difficult path, but I feel it's the right path. Even if we come to the same conclusion, it's better for us as a group and better for us as the mods the group has entrusted to handle issues fairly.

What if there’s no better word than just not saying anything?

I've taken a couple days to think this over and I'll be very blunt about it. The entire mediation discussion that is being propositioned relies entirely on the idea that people who don't want Fox to be a part of the community want to talk to him at all. I don't. I don't want to talk with him. I do not want to interact with him. I want nothing to do with him and I do not think there is anything, currently, that is going to change that and putting us in some kind of watched over talk is absolutely not going to change that. I should not have to put my complete and utter lack of wanting to interact with Fox aside to placate people who I feel aren't fully considering anyone's feelings on this topic. That's what's unfair.

Edited by ChrissieMcNapkins on Jan 28th 2020 at 1:01:38 PM

I live in a constant state of fear and misery.

i totally get that chris

i have been thinking about this as well but never got around to post, but i think my opinion on the matter essentially boils down to 'this was handled not very transparently by the mods, in general should have been worked on a while ago, and just feels super weird from an outside perspective'

i'm not tied to any outcome in particular, it's just really important to me that i get my procedural objections out there.

obviously hindsight is 50/50 and it's easy for me to say all this, having not been in the position of gm

in this particular situation i think the solution of mediating requires buy-in on the part of the ppl who have grievances with fox, so if theres none of that then its gonna be a nonstarter to begin with. and like, it just seems silly to me to let fox back in no caveats, cause imo having people be-in-the-same-small-rp-but-intentionally-avoid-each-other-and-remain-mutually-blocked-until-the-end-of-time seems really like, Not Handling The Problem And Ignoring The problem While The Problem Still Exists + pretty much only breeds resentment and is not actually satisfactory for anyone

UN JOUR JE SERAI DE RETOUR PRÈS DE TOI

Alright, it seems as though that's all the comments that wanted to be placed about this. Unless there are others out there...?

Hey uh, I don't know if this is alright, but is it okay to make a post on the Season 2 thread about the Phantasm still finding the group in the East Side or no it would contradict the Streets post I made?

"To be or not be..." Artwork belongs to charcoalman

Nahhh you're good go ahead

It's been a while since anything's been said on it but the Fox situation has basically been looming over us for over a month at this point. It's been bothering me really bad since no one seems to want to say anything else nor counter the positions we have about it. It's broad radio silence and that doesn't really help anyone at all. Is anything going to happen now? What's going on?

Edited by ChrissieMcNapkins on Feb 17th 2020 at 12:48:27 PM

I live in a constant state of fear and misery.

yeah i would like if the gms were able to say something about this, since it seems the discussion has been over for a while now, because i dont mean to be rude but as it stands right now, it feels like theres a lack of willingness to actually make a concrete decision

UN JOUR JE SERAI DE RETOUR PRÈS DE TOI

A Belated Response

Hey, guys. I know this is a really belated response, and I really apologize for not participating in this discussion sooner. I was under the impression that I shouldn't participate unless directly asked, but now I realize that it only made me look like I wasn't taking this seriously. That wasn't my intent, and I apologize for it.

I'm here now, though, and I want to say a few things.

---

I've read the discussion, and I understand everyone's feelings on the matter. I'm grateful for those who say I should have a second chance. I understand those who say it's not their place to cast judgment, as they didn't have any involvement with me back then. And I definitely understand the opinions of those who want me out - we've discussed those feelings before over DM, and during those discussions I've tried my best to understand their feelings, in the hopes of rebuilding bridges with them.

And that's what I've been trying to accomplish with this - I want to rebuild bridges with this community. I know I've left a lot of negative feelings in my wake, and it's something I deeply regret, but I want to find the path forward to undo as many of these feelings as I can. I want to be optimistic that things can become better.

But I can't rebuild these bridges by myself. Over those D Ms with the people who want me out, I've tried my hardest to do this. I listened to their grievances. I tried to understand, to the best of my ability, which of my actions they stemmed from. I apologized to them for my wrongdoings, and I attempted to look for a path to mend what I broke. When these discussions ended, I thought there was hope that, maybe, this sentiment would be reciprocated.

After reading this discussion, however, I'm disappointed to see that none of my attempts bore any fruit. The opinions I saw about why I should leave are almost repeated ad-verbatim from the ones I heard over DM. I'm not saying they're invalid - again, I definitely understand these sentiments - but it really does dishearten me how my attempts to reconcile were one-sided.

I understand Riv's sentiment, that my attempts to change should have happened much earlier and without external help. I understand that my silence in this discussion sent a message that I wasn't taking this seriously - a message I had absolutely no intent of sending. I understand that, at this point in time, it's difficult for any of you to trust me.

But I really have been trying my hardest to rebuild these bridges. I'm not perfect - I've made mistakes, I've sent the wrong social signals sometimes - but I've been trying my hardest. I can't change the past - I can't correct the poor behavior I've exhibited before - but in the present I've been trying my hardest.

And I'm still willing to try my hardest. I'm still willing to try and rebuild these bridges, however difficult it may be. I'm willing to talk it out with anyone who still has a problem with me, willing to listen, willing to look for a path to make things right again.

But I can only build my side of the bridge.

I stopped listening after you said "We need a plan."

Sorry to derail the topic, but:

DISCORD CRASHING AGAIN!

Spelunking through a Halo Ring is something else...

GODDAMMIT DISCORD NOT AGAIN!

LOVE IS STORED IN THE AXOLOTL!

Edited by megarockman on Feb 18th 2020 at 7:30:05 AM

Discord shenanigans aside

There's been a decently long discussion with several good points in the server regarding the radio silence this topic has had in the last month. I understand that Fox has made another appeal, but a vocal amount of the community is in agreement that this case has dragged on for too long.

The need for the mods to be more transparent in our progress (even if there is a lack thereof) has been discussed, and we can do our best to abide by that in the future.

In the mean time, we've reached a community agreement that if there are others who remain unwilling to change their opinion of Fox, we cannot in good conscious allow Fox to return to the community. As with our original verdict, we will be banning Fox from the community, but if anyone wishes to remain in contact with him that's absolutely none of our business.

Now for another topic

I meant to lead it along in the server itself, but the Discord hiccup was kinda distracting and I don't wanna bumrush the server with it all out of nowhere again this evening.

I mentioned that at least Norm and I are totally spent when it comes to moderating, and although we are saying we want to be better mods for everyone the really big fact-of-matter is that doing a job that makes you miserable...

Just makes you more miserable lol.

I was kinda hoping we could reopen some kinda discussion about what to do about the moderating group now, since the last idea didn't totally pan out.

mario is red, i am green, i try my best, but everyone's mean

bangs hands on table

make me a mod.

so we have a couple options i figure

we could have a vote for people to hold the two jobs, we could have one disciplinary gm, or we could do something different

Hmmmm

What would the second option do?

LOVE IS STORED IN THE AXOLOTL!

we ended up discussing what our plan is in discord @daisy

UN JOUR JE SERAI DE RETOUR PRÈS DE TOI