Groundhog Day and Rape

But the rapist is still a person who is willing to rape other people and has demonstrated that willingness. It does not matter if it "happened" or not, that's not the issue. The fact of the matter is that in order to do that, you would need to be the kind of person willing to rape, and that is terrible. Is it really such a difficult concept to grasp?

All I do, is sit down at the computer, and start hittin' the keys. Getting them in the right order, that's the trick.

@ Kashchei[172]:

I note that, though I don't agree with Swish, it's pretty clear that this scenario is basically of a solipsistic fantasizing, just, derived from reality rather than distorted concepts. Applying morals to anything except a) the effects on the solipsist, or b) the final loop, is pretty clearly a type error (the situation is sufficiently different that inputting it to moral calculus will just return nonsense.) In order to say that inflicting pain is bad in this context, you'd have to actually make an argument that the concept of inflicting any kind of suffering even makes sense in this context, instead of simply asserting that inflicting pain is bad (it is normally, but the proposed situation is very abnormal). I would like to see you do that. It would satisfy my moral intuition.. I myself have found no such argument.

The only argument about this situation that I find compelling is about the moral effect on the time-looper of performing these acts; the rules of cause and effect are still operative for them (only.).

edited 6th Dec '11 5:49:30 PM by SavageOrange

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'

You can say that the specific rape has no moral relevance in the long run because of the fact that it's erased, but even if so, it's very telling about the person themselves, and not in a good way. Even if you don't agree that the specific act itself is immoral, surely you must understand how the person who committed it is either a bad person or severely mentally ill and in need of help, fast. There's a difference between being able to enjoy a rape fantasy or a rape roleplay and actually enjoying raping someone for real.

edited 6th Dec '11 5:43:30 PM by Katrika

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

Yes... It would show they are willing to do such acts in certain contexts.*

Does that fact make a person a bad/evil person without any looking at anything else that person has ever done? No. Not by a long shot. Why? Because a single act of supreme heroism during a time-loop does not make a person a paragon of goodness forever...

I agree... But is there a difference between a reality that doesn't exist but in the mind of one person, and a fantasy?

edited 6th Dec '11 5:56:20 PM by Swish

I think this statement alone is enough to right you off as an amoral fuckwit whose arguments hold no merit. But I know that more likely than not, you are just a kid who thinks they're edgy by pretending to be an amoral fuckwit.

Yes, if you are a rapist, you are a bad person. I thought that at the very least would be understandable. There is no context where rape is cool.

Heroism is generally a spur of the moment thing and not a premeditated and violent sexual assault. They are not even comparable.

All I do, is sit down at the computer, and start hittin' the keys. Getting them in the right order, that's the trick.

Let me ask: why do you believe rape is wrong?

Personally, I believe it's wrong because it inflicts pain and a sense of violation on another person that they very much do not want to feel, and making someone else suffer sets off my Guilt-O-Meter. But in a "Groundhog Day" Loop none of that pain or violation will actually exist; it's the equivalent of being in a virtual reality machine and raping one of the holograms. Now, raping such a life-like simulation might produce a visceral reaction that would keep me from doing it, but that's different from a moral reaction.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

...If I may ask, what inspired this somewhat... unseemly topic?

Proud member of the IAA What's the point of being grown up if you can't act childish?

I'd argue that nothing makes a person "a bad person". or "a good person". Making moral judgements on people as a whole may be convenient, but it's extremely dubious whether it has any relation to reality. I firmly believe that using these terms gets in the way of clearheaded and effective discussion, much like any political buzzword or diagnonsense does.

edited 6th Dec '11 6:07:35 PM by SavageOrange

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'

@Yeah Bro First off, you need to calm down... "Amoral fuckwit?"... Really?

It's called an imagination. I have one. I can use it. And it doesn't hurt anyone to do so. It relieves stress, and doesn't hurt anyone. It also keeps me sane and prevents me from actually going out and doing bad things. A person stuck in a time-loop has however long to do whatever they want without consequence. They can use their imagination and do anything. No morals exist but within the mind of the person acting...

I agree. But Groundhog Day put one in. I explained why I think it's rape. Explain why it isn't, or explain how Phil Conners isn't a bad person because he turned into a "good person"*

by the end of the film...

Heroism isn't "spur of the moment" if done within a time loop... Because 1)you know you can fail and try again, and 2)you don't have to worry about your own personal injury because of 1...

edited 6th Dec '11 6:08:55 PM by Swish

Umm, this is kind of off-topic, but how does using in-depth information about someone in order to seduce them count as rape?

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

'I agree... But is there a difference between a reality that doesn't exist but in the mind of one person, and a fantasy?'

Yes, because with fantasies and roleplay, nobody is actually getting hurt at the time. The rapist would have to be able to actually follow through with his plan while seeing genuine fear in someone's eyes, etc. That shows a stunning lack of empathy, to regard people as fuckdolls because they're in a groundhog day loop. For that matter, how does he (or she) KNOW they're the only person in the loop? Or perhaps everyone else goes through the same actions, but is able to remember what happened, they simple can't break out of their predetermined loop.

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

Suppose you have access to a virtual reality machine where the simulations are completely realistic down to the smallest detail; you literally cannot tell the difference between reality and the computer generated images. Would you treat actions performed within the virtual reality world with the same moral significance as you would actions performed in the real world?

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

Catharsis feels like a release, but it's actually a concentration. And sure, there is a boundary between imagination and reality.. human minds are extremely poor at making that distinction though (that's one reason I insist there is a lasting effect on the looper, even though the effects are erased for everyone else). So I suggest assuming that it does anything beneficial other than taking the edge off, is problematic.

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'

I equate it to using an item to prevent someone from voicing a negative... Using Save Scumming to obtain knowledge in order to have a one night stand is no different from ruffieing that same person(or getting them so drunk they cannot consent)... The only difference is the person who performed the action makes him/herself feel better because they didn't have to ruffie them(or get them beyond drunk)...

Fantasy person X would protest that they get hurt all the time in your fantasy to hurt him/her... And you have a stunning lack of empathy for him/her... You must be a bad person...

I would assume because most people who realize they are in such a loop would ask other people questions about whether they're experiencing the same thing... Or freaking out because the same shit keeps happening over and over again...

That would imply that I am angry, rather than the truth of the matter, which is that amoral fuckwit is the best way to describe rape apologists and people who make claims like "Just as I am willing to kill a person if I know that I wouldn't go to jail for more than a specified time, and have no prosecution against me because no one ever remembered it after that specified time... ." You dig?

Fantasizing about BDSM or whatever is entirely different from saying: I only don't murder and rape because I don't want to go to prison. The fact that you can think to yourself that the only problems with rape and murder are the fact that you are punished for them shows that you are an amoral fuckwit.

I think what you're missing is that he, in this hypothetical scenario, has still raped someone and is still willing to rape provided there are no personal consequences. What is the difference between a person who rapes people in spite of the fact that they will be arrested and one who does not rape people solely because there is a law against it? Nothing, they are both willing to rape, the former just is more likely to act upon it, but in the end both are fucked-up.

I am not going to bother with the rest of your post because I have not seen Groundhog Day and have no idea what you're talking about due to that fact.

All I do, is sit down at the computer, and start hittin' the keys. Getting them in the right order, that's the trick.

Yeah Bro, you're in a den with obese lions; no matter how much sense you make, you're going to get devoured.

On this site, there's always another hurdle to jump, you can never simply say that rape is bad, you'll always have another internet philosopher ready to argue with you.

Don't step on anyone's toes; that's wrong. No matter how fucked up the other guy is, you can never call him out on it without hugging him.

Don't worry guys, he agrees with you, he's just tsundere for you.

So you're saying I should avoid getting to know someone before having sex with them?

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

Firstly, that is a wonderful metaphor. Secondly, I kinda got the feeling there might be some rape defenders given that in my first 24 hours on the site, I have seen two threads devoted to the subject. Thirdly, I am kind of curious as to why you remain if you have such a negative view of the site, surely there are less hug-boxy and less rape-apologisty forums you could be using.

All I do, is sit down at the computer, and start hittin' the keys. Getting them in the right order, that's the trick.

I don't think you actually read my post. I said I don't want to go to prison, yes... But I also said that the person has to come back to life and remember nothing(along with everyone else) before I started killing people(randomly or otherwise)...

No... The scenario is that there are no consequences at all... The "victim" doesn't remember anything. There is no physical trauma... There is no memory of the event. The only person who knows anything happened is the person whom the loop affects. It may as well be an imagination, and that's what I equate a time-loop to. The imagination of the person who experiences it.

You mean to tell me that if anyone thinks anything "bad" they are a bad person and totally frakked up? I disagree with that on principle.

I have 24 hours to get to know you... If I can't have sex with you by the end of that time, and the day resets, and I use the knowledge of the previous 24 hours to enhance the probability of my having sex with you, and I succeed, I don't believe you actually consented to sex...

It's a "lesser" degree of rape than a ruffie, or straight up forcing sex... But I still consider it one. And As I said before, I'd probably do it too if I ever found myself in a time loop... I still believe it to be wrong though... But I think speeding is wrong too, but it hasn't kept me from doing that...

Having self-centred morals doesn't make you amoral. It makes you self-centred.

By that line of argument, PUA stuff (not just the parts you ABHOR, all of it) must rank next to this for rapyness. That doesn't seem right. BUT ANYWAY, LET'S NOT GO ON A DERAIL ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO DEFINE CONSENT AND HOW MANY DIFFERENT DEGREES THERE ARE!

edited 6th Dec '11 6:37:48 PM by SavageOrange

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'

Why would one want to abuse it for that reason?

Hell, I'd use such a thing like that man in Just Enough Time To Last would, except online.

Proud member of the IAA What's the point of being grown up if you can't act childish?

Your post was ambiguous as fuck, but I forgive you for being unable to type a coherent sentence about how you really want to murder and rape people. (Provided no one got harmed of course). But it still does not change the fact that you, as a person, want to murder and rape people. That's kind of hosed-up, don't you think? I mean, the act alone is asserting physical/sexual dominance over another person without their consent, even if it has no lasting effects, it still makes you a person who gets off to removing the sexual dignity and identity from someone else.

Depends on what those "bad" thoughts are. If it is, for example, "I think that drug taking is A-OK and that the government should end its futile campaign against illicit drugs." then that is harmless, it is an expression of opinion. If someone is fantasizing about rape or having sex with children, that makes them fucked up and a bad person. You dig?

All I do, is sit down at the computer, and start hittin' the keys. Getting them in the right order, that's the trick.

I'm only here as a denizen of what could have been; I exist on these boards solely to combat the crazy, and show that TV Tropes itself isn't what's the problem, It's the psychotic, man-child userbase that's turning what could have been a great little timewaster into an example of what'd happen if you gave a serial apologist his own site.

Also, there was an incident that happened a little while ago that I feel that I can prevent from repeating if I shame enough apologists straight.

While I've always got simply leaving as an option, and an account somewhere awful in my back pocket, I don't think I could just leave these kinds of people to their own devices, you know?

Rape FANTASIES aren't bad, and actually quite common. Taking it beyond fantasies or roleplaying is bad. Most people with rape fantasies probably couldn't actually rape someone. There is a difference between thought and action, which is what he doesn't seem to get.

edited 6th Dec '11 6:53:45 PM by Katrika

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic

@Yeah Bro I'm not going to respond to the first bit... Mostly because it seems that your inability to understand references that you haven't seen makes my comments ambiguous to the point you don't understand them... This may be my fault, I admit, but I'm of the idea that one shouldn't comment on something if they don't understand(beyond asking questions). Making assumptions and the like seems rather... Wrong.

I think I do "dig"*

. Only things that are okay to you are allowed to be thought about. Your morality is the only morality that matters, and no one else is allowed to think otherwise... Got it...

I agree... But I don't really see any big difference between a fantasy and an event that doesn't exist but in the mind of one person(which is what a time-loop that only one person remembers is)...