Smoking Bans

^^

I fundamentally disagree with your whole social contract means helping someone regardless of if they want it thing.

I feel it doesn't, when people don't want you to "help" then you shouldn't.

Listen, Barkey, if you want to smoke despite full knowledge of the risks, that's your business as an adult. Just do it where you don't inconvenience other people who don't want to be subjected to it.

You cannot speak for the young people who start smoking because it's "cool" or because their peers pressure them into it, without any understanding of the lifelong consequences they are setting themselves up for. At the very least we can stop the tobacco companies from marketing to these people, either directly, via Do Not Do This Cool Thing, or by setting it up as a Rite of Passage for adulthood, while at the same time educating kids as to the risks of smoking.

And, frankly, by saving the lungs and the sensibilities of people who don't wish to partake of smoking by proximity to those who do.

edited 21st Aug '12 2:28:08 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Leave us a place where we're guaranteed no harassment and we'll gladly go there. Oh wait, those keep getting outlawed...

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

Aren't open spaces still legal? These are the only place you should be smoking if you don't want to bother anyone, anyway.

edited 22nd Aug '12 12:38:31 AM by Heatth

Yes, that is an issue. But you can definitely go far enough away so the smoke won't get in their face. That is not an inconvenience to anyone overall. Moving a bit further? Oh, please.

And yes, making it harder to do so is the entire goal. Smoking is indeed horrible. Second hand smoke actually affected my healthy severely. It's the actual reason I cannot handle a full-time job. So why should a lot of us who are hurt severely, including dead... feel sorry that you have go a bit further. I'm lucky I can handle a part-time job thanks to smokers who decided to be near tons of people. My chest severely hurts and I have major lung problems. Exercise cannot fix this kind of thing either, unfortunately.

I completely agree that they should make more zones, including people being made to be 30 feet away between a public place unless it's a specific smoking area.(as in a Smoking Bar) And I have family that smokes, and they also agree that it needs to be heavily regulated.

You want to risk your own health? You're quite free to do that. But do not risk ours whatsoever. That's far more horrible than you think it is.

Quest 64 thread

Can't the same be said about fines? (especially speeding tickets from automatic radars)

Though on the angle of financially punishing smokers, I'd be more in favor of reducing their health insurance coverage or raising their premiums (a bit like car insurance does, by the way)... except for detox, which would always be 100% covered, to encourage people to stop smoking.

edited 22nd Aug '12 12:41:19 AM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

@Irene: Give us a place to go that is ours and we'll gladly go there. Give us the ability to congregate and we'll take advantage of it. Give us an alternative that does not cost an arm and a leg (which they do) and we might decide to use it.

Oh, and our health insurance premiums are already higher. So congrats, y'all won that round.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

Fines are an entirely different kettle of fish as they are a punishment for something that you do that is unacceptable, ie if you are fined for doing something that means that something does not have the approval of law (like speeding). Taxes, however, is just a fee that you pay to the government for using facilities for legal and acceptable goals (such as using the intrastructure that is built by the government like roads for transporting your goods that you want to sell).

I would not mind banning smoking and have people paying a fine for smoking rather than just tax cigarettes. At least the government's position is clear.

edited 22nd Aug '12 12:47:31 AM by IraTheSquire

What part of "Yes, you should have a place" didn't I specify? Of course I believe you should.

But that's all you should get. We need to erase smoking itself to actually stop people from dying from all the effects of smoking and second-hand smoke. They both kill extremely often and are a problem.

Forcing you to go out and research the labels manually means you'll have a better chance of breaking the habit and it would also severely help to save lives.

I'd say you deserve a place to smoke. No issues with that. Anything more... nah. The harder it is to get, the easier your habit will die down, and the move lives that will be saved. It's not just "Think of the Children", it's thinking of all the lives that are saved the more smoking is brought down. It's a harmful act to everyone, after all. Of course, I'm sure every smoker that did the research knows that.

Quest 64 thread

@Ira: I can sort of respect that position. I wouldn't like to see it enacted, you understand...but I can acknowledge its honesty.

@Thread: anyhow, here's the thing:

I get that y'all hate smoking, and I get why you do. It's unhealthy and yes, it can and will impact the health of those who did not make a choice to start ingesting tobacco products. It's a bad idea that Western society never should have cottoned to. That's why you are going to win.

Yes, that's right; you are going to win. Eventually cigarettes will go the way of the dodo. Very soon, the rack behind a gas station attendant will display something other than tobacco products. Someday no one under the age of 80 will know what the fuck an "ashtray" is.

However in the meantime we degenerate artifacts kindly ask that you give us our place in the museum. We'd like permission to slowly die in peace or whatever. At one point, smoking was cool and we signed on.

Besides...your whole self-righteous kick is undermining more than you realize. History will remember not only that you won, but also how you won. I encourage you all to think about that.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

You mean that won by taking out one of the most harmful habits in history, by doing it the right way, through subtle means instead of forcefully killing it?

You also assume it'll actually disappear. I doubt it will. I believe it'll be moderated and just lessened to prevent tons of diseases and hurt less people. I'd prefer the regulation myself.

And really, trying to make us feel guilty for saving thousands of lives by stopping something extremely horrible? Come on, man. That's not going to work. Making laws to regulate it and make it harder... we should feel guilty for that? You can't be serious.

Quest 64 thread

Is persecution against smokers really that bad? I can only speak by my own cultural bias of course but, over here, all the smokers are asked are to go outside to smoke*

. Is this really that intrusive? If a smoker truly didn't want to bother anyone, they wouldn't smoke anywhere else, anyway. Or is it anti-smoking initiatives are more bothersome wherever you live?

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:07:08 AM by Heatth

@Irene: Whatever. when the Moral Guardians come for your chosen poison, I will take great pleasure in laughing at you.

@heath: You cannot smoke within 25 feet of a door, window or any air vent (which means forget lighting up within sighting distance of a building). Tossing a cigarette butt on the sidewalk is littering (500 dollar fine)...and forget about finding an ashtray. You cannot smoke in any indoor structure except a private residence. There is no provision for private smoking clubs of any sort; cigar bars, private smoking clubs and the like are specifically forbidden by state law.

There's even talk that they will forbid smoking in your car. So yeah, no me gusta.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:12:25 AM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

I agree, the only way I could see cigarettes completely going is if something even more addictive runs them out of business.

Try not cough out a lung.

...yeah that was ghoulish to say, but a guy can only be laughed at over the Internet a certain amount of times, before he finally snaps

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:12:17 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

I will repeat my question: are the anti-smoke initiatives really that bad where you live?

Answered in an edit. Forgive the ninjas.

EDIT: Braeburn, I work for a living and both my lungs are where they belong. If you want me to hack one up, you are going to have to try a little harder than Phillip Morris.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:15:18 AM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

@Heatth: The other problem is that anti-smoking treatments that are actually effective are so tightly regulated by the FDA that it's hard to find them. I'm dating Drunkscriblerian, and I remember the couple of times he tried to quit.

For one, the nicotine patches make him hallucinate (dealing with that was fun), the gum flat out doesn't work, and the only thing that got him to stop smoking cigarettes were the refillable electronic cigarettes, which the FDA is trying to ban, along with non-tobacco cigarette replacements.

So it really is an issue of people looking down on smokers and telling them "You need to quit" without actually giving them any avenue to quit. Also the tax thing is kind of bullshit, because there aren't any government-sponsored cessation programs available, so it really is more of a punitive measure than a helpful one.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:21:56 AM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

@Braeburn: Exactly. It just won't happen.

@DS: Making me feel guilty is honestly futile. Won't happen here. I do not find anything immoral about highering the taxes to prevent more smokers from starting. It does suck for previous ones. I completely agree and will not deny that. Maybe when the habit is nearly dead outside of previous ones, labels could come back, taxes could lower again. But till then, I believe saving lives alone without actually killing others is the highest moral ground possible.

Quest 64 thread

That is a genuine problem. Quitting should be made as easy as possible (ideally, easier than continuing to smoke, but that's a dream)

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

Its okay. Forgive me too for being insistent.

The lack of ashtray are certainly annoying, specially with such excessive fine*

. Is the 25 feet limit only for stationary smokers or moving ones as well? For the former is somewhat understandable, but for the later it just means one can no some on the streets when walking, which is pointless. I can't think in a decent reason for forbidding in personal cars either*

assuming you are not a private driver or something like that, of course

.

Aside that, smoking in public indoors should be forbidden. There is always someone who will be damaged by the lingering smoke. Even in private establishments there are the employers to think about. In a cigar bar, the amount of smoke would be probably quite high*

, the waiter shouldn't be subjected to that.

Thanks for you reply as well. You actually sell the point better than Scriblerian himself*

. That electronic cigarettes ban does seems kinda retarded. As I understand, they don't really produce smoke do them*

before that, why ban them if cigars themselves are allowed?

?

Yeah, I get that the anti-smoking bans are more draconian over there than they are here. Thanks. Gives me new perspective, really.

Also, for record, I don't agree with the bullshit "You need to quit" argument. Yeah, you probably should, certainly, but it is not easy. Tobacco is one of the most addictive drugs out there. Punishing the current users won't help. And even those who don't actually want to stop, it is their business what they do with their bodies. If they actually don't bother anyone than it is their problem alone.

I agree. As I understand, the predominant view is the smoker is almost a criminal. The truth is they should be viewed more like victims.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:43:59 AM by Heatth

She's not trying to make you feel guilty. Regardless of the taxes, she raises a good point. We need a government sponsored anti-smoking group or program.

Electronic Cigarettes don't produce smoke.

Nobodies 100% sure about what the negative effects of electronic cigarettes are. The FDA and the World Health Organization don't like them.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:53:08 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

To be honest, I couldn't tell the difference. My bad.

And I completely agree. Make that money good for stuff besides being used for Army sponsored stuff...(a lot of taxes go there)

A good program would make the taxes perfect, would actually help, and it's a perfect Catch-22. The less taxes that come up means there's less smokers, which means the program did its job correctly.

I was talking about the "poison" bit, actually when I said "making me feel guilty". I was never referring to the program, which is an excellent idea. Should've specified the post.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:45:38 AM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread

I am not sure about that. I agree with you general point (I've said so previously in that thread), but considering how many people I know who want to stop but cannot, I don't think it is right to deliberately punish the smoker. Specially because many of these people don't actually have the spare money.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:46:21 AM by Heatth

The more they cannot pay... the more they cannot smoke. In most cases, they'll be fine.

I also specified that I prefer the program idea over just pure taxes.

Quest 64 thread

The high prices might also deter people from taking up smoking.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:55:28 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016