Do You Believe in American Exceptionalism?

For tropers that live in America, and perhaps some non-US tropers, I have been wondering if you believe in the belief that America is inherently different (NOT NESSESARILY BETTER) than other countries. I mean do you think America will eventually fall like so many other nations in the past?

Personally, I've been fascinated by the notion of AE since my APUSH class.

EDIT: If anyone wants more info on the link

edited 19th Nov '11 10:30:58 PM by NexusCell

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, I could go on for days, FUCK NO!

It took millions of people hundreds of years of hard work to put this country anywhere near where it is today, we're riddled with holes and problems and dickheads like everyone else, and we're only really "exceptional" if you define that as "expanded in a very lucky manner, got huge and obtained lots of resources, and wasn't leveled during the World Wars."

To claim that (a) god(s), some innate talent, or simple nationalist metaphysics are responsible for what was the product of goddamned hard work and luck is fucking insulting, and anyone who does should have their citizenship revoked.

Edit: And, for the sake of argument, if it was real and true, we should still operate under the assumption that it isn't, because people will work harder if they assume nothing will be given to them, and as Benjamin Franklin said, "God helps those who help themselves."

For the record, I love my country and all the people in it, and I think every single American worth the ink on their birth certificate should take the very concept of "American Exceptionalism" as an inherent personal insult. It's demeaning and annoying to claim that Americans couldn't possibly do anything on their own, and so they need the fucking Force from Star Wars in lieu of actual effort. Fuck that noise.

edited 19th Nov '11 9:52:12 PM by USAF713

America is certainly an outlier from a number of trends among developed nations, not all in positive ways. I don't think the question is very clear though; what does it mean for America to be inherently different?

Um, to be fair, there's nothing contradictory about a proposition combining God/talent/effort in development history of America. And no, you should not revoke citizenship for holding such a belief or proposing such a thesis. Citizenship is protected by the 14th and the freedom of speech by 1st. Such beliefs are indeed encompassed by the 1st.

Anyway. The United States of America has certainly set some important precedents. Its name, for one thing: it refers to the union of states of this continent, and now "American" means "from or of United States". It tried a confederation treaty among states, and then replaced with a unique federal structure, and constitutional rule of law. It also went overboard trying to get itself away from royalty/nobility concepts and proclaimed the value of judicial review. And those are just founding days.

It's also done a lot of things on its own. But in the end, it's a nation, and we should ease up on the exceptionalism idea.

edited 19th Nov '11 10:07:44 PM by abstractematics

I'm not really sure what America would have that Australia wouldn't have for the same reasons.

It is inherently different. I don't understand how anyone could argue against this. At the very least, it's different geologically.

What are you even asking?

It's never presented like this, however. American Exceptionalism is near-universally shown as "these few people are God's gift to this good green Earth, and He came down from the heavens through America to show all these others godless heathens how to run a country, and they better bow to their superiors before we throw an aircraft carrier battlegroup at them, now give us all your money, you pagan son of a bitch."

It just drips of Christian fundamentalist (which is an insult to normal Christians)-tinged flag-waving neoconservative nationalism, and I hate it with an immeasurable passion.

No, not legally. People are entitled to their opinions, however idiotic and insulting. However, that's what ought to happen when people suggest such stupid shit. Ought to is a value judgement, not a policy recommendation.

It's asking about Untied States of America as a nation, unless I'm mistaken. And about how it's unique in ways others are not.

It's true that the idea of divinely ordained American exceptionalism and other American-centric attitudes have been abused, but to be fair, one could also state that while these factors have made unique advancements to the US, they have been present in different nations at different points in history.

And no. I'm not just talking about 1st Amendment being in force, but also the spirit of it. You shouldn't kick people out for a sense of nationalism.

edited 19th Nov '11 10:17:36 PM by abstractematics

it is only exceptional in the fact that it's probably the best country to do (big) business. few other places hold corporations so close to their heart. i wouldn't call it inherently different inasmuch as they simply made it that way.

edited 19th Nov '11 10:16:41 PM by willyolio

Of course America is unique. So is every other one of the 192-196 countries on this planet. If we were all the same, we'd have a world government.

That's not what American Exceptionalism is, though.

Links are usually necessary for these kinds of threads, so the OP knows for later...

Edit: Also, anybody who actively identifies with this theory is probably either a Right-Wing Militia Fanatic or would sympathize with their ideas, in which case, it should be noted that Josef Stalin coined the term "American exceptionalism" as it's known today.

edited 19th Nov '11 10:18:12 PM by USAF713

OK? But didn't he also say "One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic"? That's a sad but applicable observation sometimes. Stalin coining it doesn't mean the idea shouldn't be given a thought. This ends up being reductio ad Stalinum, similar to Godwin's Law.

America has a traditional sense of uniqueness because its beginnings were showing important contrasts. Problem is, America is also resilient to change, for good or bad, so this attitude is hard to subdue.

edited 19th Nov '11 10:22:58 PM by abstractematics

He didn't actually say that. His biography writer did, as I understand it, and then he attributed it to Stalin. Anyhow, I don't think Stalin saying it discredits the theory, I just think it's amusing that all these "red-blooded American patriots" who stand for "freedom, justice, the American way, and the free market" are taking ideas from a totalitarian communist dictator they would spew bile all over the place about if asked for their opinion on the man...

Thanks for the tip.

edited 19th Nov '11 10:29:53 PM by NexusCell

Again, reductio ad Stalinum. So Stalin made an observation based on "its natural resources, industrial capacity, and absence of rigid class distinctions". Agreeing with that observation doesn't mean the people are bad; it might be an observation that one may make if he or she is looking at things globally. One might even hold the view for a different reason. Actually, reading Wikipedia, it says he refuted the American Communists that thought America was unique because of that.

US has some important differences, good and bad, many arising from Founding Fathers' fears that made them put all these checks. How different it is from European trend (as this article quotes) is debatable.

edited 19th Nov '11 10:33:55 PM by abstractematics

Hey, I'll argue with the idea on its merits (or rather, the lack thereof) all day. I just think it's funny, in that context, that he, of all people, named the concept as we know it today.

Well sure, and again, I acknowledge that yes, we are different. Every country is different from every other country. We are not, however, superior, in any inherent way, nor are we, in my opinion, some "God favored nation" that is somehow considered metaphysically better than all the other sovereign states of the world.

God bless America, fine, but don't act like that's a fact, rather than a hope, wish, and prayer.

So why would you argue linking Stalin with sympathizers of the idea, when Stalin was against it?

People have initially believed this because the purpose of founding this nation was to be different from Europe and previous historical "errors". That's no reason to revoke citizenship. That's not a smart move if you actually believe in freedom of speech.

Because it's funny. It's a joke. Think about it: hardcore anti-communists who would shoot anyone vaguely leftist if they could get away with it worshiping at the feet of an idea named by a totalitarian communist dictator. I think it's hilarious.

Once again, it's a value judgement, not a policy recommendation. I think that to be a just society we must allow these people to spew their idiocy, but I would make it very clear exactly how little I think of them for it.

He named it. So what? He even disagreed. I don't see the humor, partly in because when you first mentioned it, that comment was on the verge of strawman. I don't like that.

With our flailing economy, people on the streets, raising unemployment numbers, and congress saying pizza is a vegetable, I dont know how anyone can say God favors the USA.

Unless its like God is playing Sim City and he decided he was frustrated/bored one day and decided to see how much he could fuck things up.

Maybe a giant robot will attack and a volcano will rise from underneath New York.

I'm sure he would disagree, since he wasn't American and wasn't a religious fundamentalist.

Also, how the hell is that a strawman? I said, in summary, "people who usually subscribe to this are Right-wing conservatives that hate communists, and yet the guy who named the concept is the go-to example of a communist dictatorship, which is ironic in a hilarious way."

I mean that this is invalid.

1: If you agree, you are associated with Right Wing Militia Fanatics.

2: If you sympathize with their ideas, then you should know that Stalin coined the term.

3: ???

C: Bad.

All this would amount to is Stalin coining an idea he criticized, and contemporaries replying in its defense. There's nothing wrong with that, nothing to make fun of, and it's disrespectful for anyone else that wants to post in defense of AE.

The US began differently, but it is not immune from the trends that govern any civilization. American exceptionalism is a silly concept; it is different from other similar empires in culture and history (even then, not very), yes, but in practice, it may as well be called "Rome". It only seems different because the rest of the world is somewhat different, and the methods used by empires in the past to dominate others are no longer viable.

EDIT: Actually, it didn't even begin differently. The US is more or less a modern version of the Roman Republic.

edited 19th Nov '11 11:20:23 PM by tropetown

I shouldn't have used Right-Wing Militia Fanatic. It should be more like:

• 1) If you agree with this idea, you're likely a Right-wing (neo)conservative.
• 2) If you agree with... well, any idea, really... but, if you agree with this idea, you should know the history of its naming and such.
• 3) Therefore, the fact that it was named by someone is is quite nearly the opposite of you, at least in terms of economics, should be seen as ironic, and perhaps amusing, if one has enough grace to have a self-aware sense of humor.

Sure it's something to make fun of, unless you happen to be a communist who advocates a totalitarian system and sympathize with this idea (which is about as likely as universal healthcare in America tomorrow), in which case... well, then I guess its history is appropriate, though your idol didn't agree with you.

Also, frankly, people who would defend American exceptionalism aren't going to earn my respect either way.

I'm just noting that it's a bad argument and doesn't help. Abolitionists don't frown at the irony of their abolitionist position just because the word was used by its critics. Same for democracy. Founders of US didn't like it and used the word as an insult, but after 1 or 2 generations it became a central American theme. Stalin verbally chastised American Communists by calling them deluded American exceptionalists, but now people defend that term. Going from anyone trying to see some merit in the idea to Stalin via arbitrary linking is what I meant.

To clear things up, American Exceptionalism is at the core idea that US has seen unique differences from other nations the way other nations have not experienced with respect to their foreign nations, and there are some elements of that. That doesn't make us superior, but the OP focuses on differences and not just superiority.

edited 19th Nov '11 11:34:29 PM by abstractematics

No

Its no different from British Exceptionalism or Spanish Exceptionalism or Arab Exceptionalism.