Ongoing European Debt Crisis

Yes I do and its for similar reasons.

Also, UK bond rates are now cheaper than Germany's.

Dutch Lesbian

Austerity is not and never was the answer. The rich people who caused this disaster need to be responsible for getting us out.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Try telling the Austrian Economic retards at the IMF that, its like they are divorced from the reality of the Southern European States.

Hungary has asked the IMF and the EU for assistance btw

Dutch Lesbian

The IMF work on the Austrian models? Awwhhh, crap.

So, the public sector strike next Wednesday should knock another toolbox into works. I'm torn about the strikes. On one hand, if enough teachers in my school strike, then I get a day off. On the other hand, the economic impacts of the mass withdrawal of labour could be far-reaching.

The IMF's worked that way for a long time — they asked for austerity after their 1976 Bailout of the UK, for example*

.

...and well, they're not going to win, are they? If they do, it'll make things worse, and getting worse anyway. It does appear though, that the Government might announce spending on Infrastructure (Roads, Rail and Broadband) during the Autumn Budget Statement.

Keep Rolling On

Too little, too late, and it does no good to spend on infrastructure while demanding austerity in other parts of the economy. Without a sudden dramatic shift to an expansionary fiscal policy, Europe is doomed, and even with such a shift, they still have to deal with the balance of payments issues between the core and periphery. It would take a huge political change to make that happen, which will not happen as long as Merkel is at the helm.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

That's only Britain, not everyone else (Europe is not one country). And anyhow, Political change like that won't happen — the German public don't want it. They want the countries in trouble to learn to be responsible, and they'd rather not spend money on it.

If it fails, Merkel's out.

Keep Rolling On

Yes, I don't understand where this "Germans want to control everyone else" comes from. It's more that Germans want to make sure everyone else knwos how to take responsibelity so that they don't need to pay for it. Take Greece for example, German would love to have it back on standing, Euro stable and Greece finaly taking responsible care of it's economy.

Reason why EU may look weak is that it's democratic and composed of very different nations. Greece is very different from Finland, Germany is different from Poland etc. etc. Then you put all these guys into same decision making process, you can't expect anythign else than useless bickering. EU is in kind of state where it is neither full-blown Federation but neither just alliance, but somewhere middle. Unfortunatly, such state is not good. There is too much connection to may every one suffer from mistakes of one but not enough unity to fight against such matters. Either EU needs to scale down or scale up on "Is EU a nation?" level.

Italy forced to pay record interest rates at auction

Moody's has cut its rating of Hungarian government debt to junk status.

One day I'll be able to post a good news story on the European Debt Crisis. However, I am being to think that the IMF is some how got to bailout Italy at some point in the near future.

Dutch Lesbian

The "German people" want the periphery countries to "be responsible"? Citation, please. If that's true, then they are idiots of the highest order. There are fundamental imbalances between the core and periphery Eurozone countries that cannot simply be resolved through wishful thinking. If Germany thinks it can stand above the crisis and ignore reality while wagging its finger at everyone else, it's dead wrong.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

The Dutch finance minister moved closer to endorsing the European Central Bank's (ECB) role as lender of last resort on Thursday, as the Netherlands appeared to break ranks with Germany over how to resolve the euro zone debt crisis.

Yay! thats just what we need, more friction between Germany and the other Northern Europeans.

This table shows corporate, household and government debts as a % of GDP◊

This table shows what happens if we added in pension liabilities.◊

Dutch Lesbian

Germany's usually considered a Central European country, isn't it?

The UN apparently considers the UK a part of Northern Europe (I would've called it Western Europe, but whatever...) But Germany's never been part of North Europe, right? (The UN says it's West European, but they don't have a Central Europe in their maps at all; if they did, it'd be the obvious place for Germany.)

(The Baltic states are North European? I've usually seen them listed as East European countries, but culturally, it does make sense to have them in the same group as us rather than Ukraine, Bulgaria and Belarus.)

edited 25th Nov '11 6:20:37 AM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Well, in this context of the Euro Debt Crisis, Germany is considered to be a Northern European state. However, it is surprising the UN considers the UK to be a Northern state because we all would consider ourselves to be Western European

Dutch Lesbian

Fixed that for you. The people aren't as pro-Europe as you and I, Beer.

Well, since there are plenty of pro-EU and otherwise pro-Europe people in the UK (not a majority, perhaps, but still numbered in the millions unless I'm very much mistaken,) it's not fair to generalise the British as not considering themselves European.

I know that there's a strong and common idea in the UK that it's not part of Europe, as if it was possible to understand British art, philosophy, or any other field of British culture as not among the principal centres of the common European heritage.

Really, look at any, any aspect of British culture and tell me how you trace or describe its foundations and the different aspects of it without relating it and partially deriving it of the corresponding movements or ideas from other parts of Europe. The English language itself is derived mostly of European relatives (and Latin and French) and older British languages that also arrived from Europe. And the English language is one of the most distinct parts of British culture compared to the rest of Europe.

Look at any movement in British philosophy, and you'll see that it's fundamentally tied to continental European movements. I know, I've studied philosophy, though I've only the equivalent of the basic studies that would (were I taking it as my main subject) amount to a Bachelor's degree in the field.

The subject I'm majoring in (and will soon get my Bachelor's degree) is English Language and Culture, in the sense that it (theoretically) contains all varieties of the English language and all culture that has to do with that language. You know what I've found in every single course? There's nothing, nothing in English (or Scottish or Irish or Welsh) culture or history that isn't fundamentally derived of or in response to corresponding or preceding movements in Europe, and the contributions of the British in every field are fundamental in those European movements.

I'd argue that Finland is culturally much further from Europe than the UK, especially when it comes to our language, which isn't even part of the Indo-European language family. I really don't see how Serbia or Portugal could be seen as somehow more European than Britain.

...And this has been another one of my trademark off-topic rants, including a complementary mention of Finland. Thank you! Thank you!

edited 25th Nov '11 8:02:05 AM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Spain's new centre-right government, due to be officially sworn in mid-December, is considering applying for international aid as one of its options to shore up its finances, sources close to the party say.

Thats quite interesting because no one has the resources to bail Spain out.

Dutch Lesbian

Well, dang.

Italy, Greece, Hungary, Spain, Protugal... Which European nation am I leaving out under the "financially unstable" category?

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.

Ireland and Iceland.

Dutch Lesbian

@the United States of Europe: If it means German wages in a few years, the southern european public will sign. Being wholly and completely a single economy would be a boon for the Southern Europeans. If Germany has the political will to do it and the French don't care to thwart them, the Eurozone will comply.

It's probably not that bad of an idea.

edited 25th Nov '11 2:04:26 PM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

@ Fighteer:

Well, it's something I've heard here — see this article, for instance:

Anyway, here's more on the Public Sector strikes here — which includes Immigration Officals (including Managers) — that could lead to 12-hour delays at Heathrow. Articles here:

• Public sector strike could see Heathrow 'grind to halt'
  • Q&A: Public sector strikes
  • Public sector strikes: The key issues for the unions

German Wages? Not as good as they once were...

...and some are increasingly pessimistic about their future.

edited 25th Nov '11 2:22:08 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On

Belgian credit rating cut amidst debt concerns owing to lack of established government within the country.

This also spreads the debt crisis beyond the PIIGS.

Ok, I give you now the chance to have a look in the mind of one frustrated German about the current situation (please note this is not my personal opinion).:

The difference between Germany and say, the UK is that we know our greatest time lies behind us. We are faced with the prospect of an ageing, shrinking population and all its consequences. Things are not great now, how should we expect them to imrove later? It's not like we want to dominate Europe or something (a prospect which is ridiculous considering the birth-rate discrepancy between Germany and France), we just wish to live in a peaceful Europe where everybody buys our goods and we can visit our neighbours across the Rhine or the Oder. All this in mind makes the situation for Germany just more frustrating, it's like several countries holding an idiot ball at the worst possible time. Italy was governed until now by an incompetent joke of politician, and despite facing similar demographic problems like Germany did nothing to prepare its social systems for the future. Belgia just got downgraded while its parties can't reach an agreement with each other. And Greece, oh boy Greece.... We are now forced to save a currency we didn't even want to join, the only reason we became a member was due to the fact that our dear French friends actually thought we could try to establish a Fourth Reich, despite all the good deeds we did after WWII. Furthermore while we actually want to save the Euro, we get nothing but insults and spite from those idiots who are self-responsible for their problems. It really hurts to see all these Nazi-comparisons in the media and sometimes you really have to ask why we were so naive to think people could stop judging others by things their grandparents did. Much has been said about Germany dictating conditions to the PIGS, but what are we really demanding? We want you to reform your social systems, to work longer and to stop spending money which you don't possess? Is it really wrong to expect other countries living on the same principles as you do and which have worked so far?

Pure hypocrisy, not to mention short-sighted stupidity. First, this isn't a morality play, it's a matter of economic survival. Second, there is actually a positive relationship between social spending and economic stability across the Eurozone — the countries with larger social programs are doing better than those without. Third, Germany is as much as fault as anyone; they wanted the benefits of a European Union without any of the economic and financial responsibilities to the other countries that are also members.

It is true that Greece and Italy have some financial house-cleaning, largely due to corruption and tax evasion. Those are legitimate problems to target. But debt and inflation are not.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I don't think the Germans really care any more — they might just Rage Quit and leave the other countries to collapse. They might be the only ones that can save the other countries, but...

The Germans have had Enough.

Keep Rolling On

Among the banks that benefited the most from the wide-spread practice of short-selling (via CDS) European bonds and those of major banks from smaller European countries, most notably Iceland, Ireland and Greece, were the largest banks of Germany and France. If you look at who actually made money from this crisis, you'll find French and German multimillionaires as the beneficiaries. Or so I've read & heard... (Someone look this up.)

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.