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Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1151: Mar 23rd 2012 at 11:33:35 AM

Well I think the answer to the demand for sacrifices would be "Why should we, if we weren't responsible?". Still - you can't push for debt caps and then not hold to them! That's just so bad on so many levels! Rather do nothing at all then...

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CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#1152: Mar 23rd 2012 at 11:50:28 AM

That's it, it's the hypocrisy of it that bothers. If they just said you had to meet certain criteria to need a debt cap or austerity measures, for example, then they could have framed them such that countries with okay economies like Germany wouldn't need them. But that wasn't what happened, it was insisted that it be EU-wide. With those being the rules, there's no justification for breaking them and expecting people to be cool about it, while simultaneously unleashing Hell upon other countries doing the same thing.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#1153: Mar 26th 2012 at 2:53:34 AM

Merkel: Eurozone must avoid Greek exit

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has told the BBC it would be a huge political mistake if debt-stricken Greece was allowed to leave the euro.

In an exclusive interview, she said Germany would do everything it could to keep the eurozone together.

She also calmed fears of further bailouts for eurozone countries, saying important lessons had been learned.

And she applauded the UK government's austerity programme, saying "no country can live beyond its means".

Greece recently won approval for a second bailout of 130bn euros ($173bn; £110bn) intended to help keep it afloat until 2014.

Germany is having to pay more than any other country for the package - angering many German citizens and politicians.

Despite the measures, some analysts fear Greece might need even more help.

Asked how she saw the future for Greece, Mrs Merkel told the BBC's Newsnight programme that Athens had repeatedly said it wanted to remain within the eurozone.

"It has major weaknesses but it is trying to overcome them, be they in the administration or the competitiveness of their business community. It is going to be a long and arduous road," she said.

"We have taken the decision to be in a currency union. This is not only a monetary decision, it is a political one. It would be catastrophic if we were to say to one of those who have decided to be with us: 'We no longer want you'."

She said the eurozone would be "incredibly weakened" by a Greek exit.

"People all over the world would ask: 'Who will be next?'"

She added: "It would be a huge political mistake to allow Greece to leave. That is why we will be clear with Greece, we will say: 'If you want to be part of a common currency you have to do your homework but at the same time we will always support you.'"

Mrs Merkel said democracies had grown used to spending more than they earned, and had to be more careful to live within their means.

Asked to respond to those in Europe who feared further bailouts she said: "That is not how it is going to happen because there has been a rethink going on in Europe for some time.

"Some countries accepted the rescue package but they don't particularly relish it. They must follow conditions set out by the IMF, the ECB and the European Commission. What democratic government wants to be in that situation for the duration?

"Over the past two years in Europe, particularly in the eurozone, we have learnt a lot. We must reflect time and again, why are we together in Europe? Why are we a community that displays solidarity and bears responsibility for the others?"

Mrs Merkel said Europe - and particularly the eurozone area - had "slithered into crisis" as a consequence of a global financial downturn.

"It is a very tense situation right now," she said.

She said she believed that UK Prime Minister David Cameron "was right" to have embarked on an austerity drive.

Angela Merkel told Newsnight's Gavin Esler that Britain must decide how much it wants be part of Europe

"It is something that each country in Europe can do because we will all learn that no country can live beyond its means," she said.

"All European countries have understood this lesson. But we in the eurozone are convinced that together, we are so much stronger."

Asked if she could envisage the UK playing a bigger role in Europe than it does now, she said: "Britain plays a very important role in Europe.

"Britain has a lot of common ground with Germany on how we see the future of free global trade, we all benefit from it.

"At the end of the day the British have to decide for themselves to what extent they wish to be part of Europe.

"It is a discussion that we have seen unfortunately taking a painful turn on the [recently agreed] fiscal compact but Britain needs to know that we in Germany want a strong Britain in the EU, we always have and we always will."

She added: "In Germany we will try to see that there is less red tape, more political decisions and more transparency. I think that we are at one on this with Britain."

Dutch Lesbian
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1154: Mar 26th 2012 at 6:34:14 AM

As long as they persist in the myth of expansionary austerity and "beyond its means" living as applied to sovereign nations, they will continue to dig deeper into this crisis. It's as simple as that.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MarkThis Since: Jan, 2012
#1155: Mar 26th 2012 at 9:02:06 AM

[up]They're still using that expression? I thought it had been discredited...

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1156: Mar 26th 2012 at 9:04:03 AM

Hardly. They are still clinging to it in the way that only politicians married to a bad idea can.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#1157: Mar 26th 2012 at 12:03:34 PM

Offensiveness of the phrasing aside, I can rather see why UKIP stood up in the European Parliament and accused the Germans of having an Austerity Mach Frei policy.

Please note I entirely agree with punching a hole in Nigel Farrage's head for that one, but Germany's love for austerity left the realm of sanity long ago.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#1158: Mar 26th 2012 at 12:11:56 PM

Ve haf vays of making you fiscally responsible...

edited 26th Mar '12 12:13:22 PM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel
MarkThis Since: Jan, 2012
#1159: Mar 26th 2012 at 12:44:34 PM

Angela Merkel on Greece wanting out: 'You can check out, but you can never leave'

edited 26th Mar '12 12:44:46 PM by MarkThis

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#1160: Mar 26th 2012 at 3:11:10 PM

What's the EU going to do if Greece does leave and starts printing drahmas again? Invade Greece because they refuse to use the Euro any more? That would certainly make the Greek people happy.

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Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1161: Mar 28th 2012 at 9:59:37 AM

I think you people misinterpret "not letting Greece leave". The Greeks least of all want out of the Euro. It's not like they're being forced, quite the contrary. "Not letting Greece leave" just means "avoiding it becoming inevitable".

That being said, for just that exact reason that was a stupid as hell formulation by Merkel...

edited 28th Mar '12 10:00:08 AM by Octo

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whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#1162: Mar 28th 2012 at 11:42:09 AM

[up][up]

Greece can't leave the Euro without leaving the EU so its going to a nightmare internationally. Never mind the inflation and lack of access to bond markets. There is also the issue of Greece negotiating treaties with the EU.

Dutch Lesbian
GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#1163: Mar 28th 2012 at 9:07:16 PM

There are a number of nations in the European Union that don't use the Euro. I can't see why Greece can't leave the Euro but stay in the European Union.

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whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#1164: Mar 29th 2012 at 4:31:21 AM

Because there isn't a provision to leave the Euro without leaving the European Union. It simply wasn't even considered that a country would have to leave the Eurozone so they didn't anything in.

Dutch Lesbian
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1165: Mar 29th 2012 at 4:42:55 AM

Yeah, they intentionally set the treaties up as a sort of oneway street. Oh sure, you don't need to take part in all steps of unification, but if you do, you're in. That being said, look how fast and loose the European governments play with the treaties anyway. If people wanted it that way, Greece could in fact leave the Eurozone but not the EU. However, people don't want so, least of all the Greeks themselves. For the Greeks, being in the Eurozone is like a guarantee for further aid money, and besides, returning to the drachma would lead to all kinds of transistion pains. For the rest of Europe, well, they'd risk fiscal woes rather than to face the political emberassment of one Eurozone country leaving; it would set "the wrong signals".

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GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#1166: Mar 29th 2012 at 9:51:32 AM

I suppose so... though I think the European Union was pretty flawed from the start. I mean it is supposed to be a power block like the United States or the former Soviet Union, but both nations never had easy transitions into their initial forms. They both had revolutions... a hard cut.

edited 29th Mar '12 9:52:20 AM by GameGuruGG

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whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#1167: Mar 29th 2012 at 3:13:28 PM

Italians have been left shocked by two cases of men setting themselves on fire in the past two days in protest at their financial hardship.

It seems that the Communists are going to use this to try to gain power in Italy like the Communists in Greece are using austerity to gain power there

Dutch Lesbian
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
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#1171: Mar 29th 2012 at 7:55:26 PM

I'm just sayin'. Besides, we're not at 1906 levels of communication (read: ability to organize) and expectation (read: we want better and know we can get it) either.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1172: Mar 29th 2012 at 10:51:39 PM

So far, the radical left seems to have been rather unable to profit from the financial crisis, though.

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whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#1173: Apr 3rd 2012 at 6:50:26 AM

The government is being "profoundly unwise" in its approach to the new EU fiscal pact, a group of M Ps has said.

The European Scrutiny Committee said ministers clearly had reservations about the pact's legality but had not said what action they planned to take.

It also warned that the pact may be "politically impossible to enforce" and "some form of breakdown of the eurozone clearly remains possible".

The UK refused to join 25 other EU nations in signing up to the agreement.

The aim of the Stability, Co-ordination and Governance Treaty - which was also vetoed by the Czech Republic - is to bring about much closer integration of budget policy across the EU to prevent excessive debts accumulating.

In December, Mr Cameron suggested the European Court of Justice and the European Commission must remain for the use of all 27 EU states, and not for the fiscal pact countries alone.

But he later said he would not veto any efforts to use the court to enforce the accord - despite there being "legal questions" about such a move.

The PM said he would "watch closely" to see how the court was used and if necessary, would take legal action "if our national interests are threatened by the misuse of the EU institutions".

But the the question of what the government intends to do "remains unsatisfactorily unresolved".

Chairman and prominent Conservative Eurosceptic Bill Cash said: "Politically and legally, it is profoundly unwise to suggest taking action, and then not to explain how it intends to carry it through, or what concessions are now being sought and achieved.

"The approach to this treaty provides further and ever more disturbing evidence of the European Union - in the context of increasingly coercive attitudes by Germany and France and the European establishment in pursuit of further and deeper political and legal integration - dangerously ignoring its own precepts for political ends.

"The government must clearly state as soon as possible what action it now intends to take on the treaty."

The committee said it believed the treaty "does little towards solving the eurozone crisis, other perhaps than providing some comfort to international markets".

"Moreover it is possible that the treaty will prove to be politically impossible to enforce. As undesirable as it may be, some form of breakdown of the eurozone clearly remains possible."

The report does endorse the prime minister's veto last December, but says the Foreign and Commonwealth Office "was less than co-operative" in helping committee members scrutinise the fiscal pact on behalf of the House.

Source

So it seems that the British position is simple. They believe that the new pact is unenforceable, impractical, doesn't deal with the crisis that we are facing and may make the break up of the Eurozone or some countries leaving it inevitable

Dutch Lesbian
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1174: Apr 3rd 2012 at 6:57:07 AM

There there, Britain. It's okay, we understand that you're just a little scared about becoming part of the Franco-German takeover of European economic policy. It is a big step to take, after all, ceding control of your sovereign finances to a bunch of fiscal conservative lunatics. But you can be reassured that they do have someone's best interests in mind, even if it isn't yours or in fact any of the non-super-rich citizens of any of their countries.

Now come on, bend on over so we can lube you up. You'll learn to enjoy it in time, we promise.


Switching back to a not completely sarcastic tone, what astonishes me is that Cameron's government, of all people, is objecting to this. After all, isn't he the guy who's pushing austerity on Britain and having exactly the same results that Keynes predicted and that we've seen elsewhere?

edited 3rd Apr '12 7:01:50 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1175: Apr 3rd 2012 at 7:43:37 AM

It's not the austerity he fears, but the Franco-German plans for a financial transaction tax. It's not all about austerity, you knowtongue

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