Ongoing European Debt Crisis

It's not that odd. Some might argue that the US's wholesale rejection of a properly federally-funded, social-welfare system due to the communist scare was the 'odd' event. 'Baby' and 'bathwater' spring to mind as words.

But, what Greece is being asked to do? Is beyond stupid: breaking a country to 'fix' it like this? Is not in anybody's long-term best interests.

@ Fighteer: That's because the European Far-Right take their cues from Those Wacky Nazis, mixed with some Socialistic aspects that were the province of the post-war European Left, such as Nationalisation.

All I can say is that if the EU leaders don't want a Fidesz-lookalike running every peripheral Eurozone country, they'd better stop punishing the middle class for the sins of the elite.

Both Octo and Fighteer are correct: The Austerity measures are being pushed by the EU because if Greece doesnt pay off it's debts, it cant borrow any more money, and the only way it can do that is to cut costs. The biggest cost the Greek Gov has control over is the public sector, so...

On the other hand, it is ultimately the Greek Government which is responsible for representing the interests of the Greek people. They are doing a rather poor job of that....

Basically, they are solving the immediate term problem and kicking the long-term problem (the need for Greek economic growth) down the road...

... down the road and into the cesspit, then covering it with an avalanche of radioactive debris. Then shooting it in the head.

Projections show the potential for a 30-40% economic hit from this "rescue" plan for Greece. You don't just dig out of that; your country collapses.

Why in god's name do you expect the EU elites to punish the Greek elites?

After all, they'd be setting quite the bad precedent for themselves if they did...

...while giving plenty of fuel to those that oppose the EU's (let alone the Euro) entire existance.

After all, if the Euro falls, the whole idea of the EU is then put on shaky ground.

I'm morbidly curious as to what happens in Greece, within the next thirty days.

Oh come on. You're never not on the OTC, so you know as well as I do that our liberals are conservatives. You're just trying to get others to agree with your obvious point without actually making it.

I don't read all the threads, not by a longshot. European political parties are still opaque to me.

Eurozone finance ministers have demanded much greater oversight of Greece's economy in return for a 130bn-euro (£110bn; $170bn) bailout package.

So Greece has 3 choices:

• Give up Financial independence

• Default

• Default and exit the Eurozone

The thing I object to here is not necessarily requiring Greece to cede sovereign control over its economic affairs; they screwed up so badly that it was sort of inevitable. The problem is that they're still pushing austerity as a solution to the crisis. It's funny-sad that politicians are getting the blame for all this, even if it's predictable. The people should be storming the homes of their wealthy businessmen and forcing them to cough up the taxes they owe.

edited 16th Feb '12 6:54:55 AM by Fighteer

Somehow, I get the feeling that tax avoidance was so deeply-ingrained in Greece that even the middle and lower-classes avoided paying taxes they should pay as well.

Even assuming that that's true, that doesn't change the fact that targeting them while ignoring the wealthy is explicitly targeting the people who hold, proportionately, the least amount of the country's wealth. It makes absolutely no sense even under the assumptions that an austerity-based solution makes to begin with.

What is the proportion of wealth held by each economic class in Greece? Do you have a source?

Does the proportion of wealth really matter? The wealthy have the most money, so assuming a flat tax for all, the wealthy would be the ones paying for most of the Greek debt.

If Greece doesn't have a flat tax, then the wealthy should still be paying the most... because they still have the most money. What Greece needs right now... is money.

edited 16th Feb '12 12:19:11 PM by GameGuruGG

Actually, Greece needs serious structural reforms as well; Octo is at least right in that simply throwing money at the problem won't fix it. Greece has to get its people paying taxes or it won't ever be able to fix its financial situation. However, that burden will inevitably fall on the rich anyway, so it amounts to the same thing.

Well, of course, Greece needs structural reforms. I never said they didn't. However, it doesn't give the wealthy the right to just skip on their own taxes while letting the poor pay for the damage. While I might be sympathetic to the Greek people, it's still partially their fault.

Partially is too euphemistic. Sure they are not solely responsible, but the Greeks have to blame mostly themselves for their current predicament. Tax evasion and corruption (Fakelaki) were not only practiced by the upper class, on the contrary, the middle class is as guilty as the rich people. The people of Greece now have to pay for their past mistakes and although I pity those who suffer despite being not at fault (especially the young people) please consider this: The past greek governments basically ruined Greece but they were elected by the people, many people voted for them because they got to work for the state in return. I mean there are some countries who have to live with the effects of some politicians they didn't even give a majority to rule... .

edited 16th Feb '12 1:30:26 PM by Zarastro

How did they get those votes? Offering social programs they couldn't pay for?

Damn... it gets hard to continue being sympathetic with the Greeks when they've been so busy wrecking their own economy through greed and corruption. What I will say is this: when the system demands graft in order to get anything done, it becomes the status quo. People who play according to the rules get shafted, while those who don't get ahead. It's not really the fault of the individual citizen who is, presumably, simply trying to live his/her life.

That said, excising an inherently corrupt system that's become ingrained in a country's culture is terrifically difficult. Just look at Russia.

And, this is why Greece should never have been yoked to the Euro in the first place. It's not like nobody flashed warnings about this, beforehand, either. Similarly, Italy, Spain and Portugal had issues (just, not as blatant).

Had the rules and benchmarks been stuck to all 'round (instead of knowingly fudged), we'd not be in this mess.

I provided one source in the last page, but here's another: http://www.indexmundi.com/greece/household_income_or_consumption_by_percentage_share.html. (Err, delete the wonky added letters in the word 'share' and the link works, sorry.) The numbers are a bit old, but I see no reason why the basic theme wouldn't stay valid. The idea of flat taxes being realistically non-regressive has been brought up and argued against repeatedly in various threads on this forum (pretty much whenever the tax code comes up), so I'm going to be lazy and let that one lie rather than copy paste a bunch of other posters' arguments.

edited 16th Feb '12 1:44:24 PM by Karkadinn

What's your view on Fakelaki? As Zarastro said, it was something done not just by the upper classes, but by the middle classes as well, almost as a way of just getting things done within the Greek system — tax evasion and corruption is endemic within the Greek system. What would you do about that?

Yeah, that's why I can't blame the Greek people completely. For all intents and purposes, they should've still been using the Drachma. Either the Greek government fudged their numbers and the European Union accepted the number without checking it to make sure, or the European Union fudged their rules to allow Greece into the Euro.