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Ongoing European Debt Crisis
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Ongoing European Debt Crisis:

Decemberist
Call a strike because the government is actually collecting taxes? Well, fuck them too.

No one likes to collect taxes in Greece which is why its fucked in the first place.

Really now, the Greeks need to wake up and smell the common sense, or they'll be thoroughly fucked.

Would you be happy if the United States had to suffer the same level of austerity as Greece?
Dutch Lesbian
 52 USAF713, Fri, 11th Nov '11 9:26:00 AM from the United States
I changed accounts.
It doesn't really matter what they like, if they expect to stay an independent non-Third World nation they better do it anyhow.

Depends. Probably not, but I'd take it as a way of staving off immediate collapse.
I am now known as Flyboy.
Decemberist
BRUSSELS — Just days before it is to propose sweeping new regulations for the credit rating agencies, the European Commission on Friday joined calls for an investigation of Standard & Poor’s after the company erroneously sent out an e-mail suggesting that it had lowered the rating on France’s sovereign debt.

Michel Barnier, the commissioner responsible for financial regulation, described the incident as “serious” and said that it strengthened his belief in the need for “strict and rigorous rules” to govern the rating agencies and other financial actors.

The incident on Thursday briefly upset markets as it raised questions on the safety of France’s sovereign debt.

In a statement, Mr. Barnier said he did not want to discuss the incident in detail but added that it showed “that in the current tense and volatile market situation, market players must exercise discipline and demonstrate a special sense of responsibility.”

“This is all the more important since we are not talking about just any market player but one of the biggest rating agencies, which, as such, has a particular responsibility, ” he said.

According to a draft of the plan due to be introduced next week, European supervisory authorities would be able to temporarily prevent the issuance of ratings on countries in “a crisis situation, ” like “where negotiations of an international financial assistance program to stabilize the economy of a country are ongoing.”

Investors would also gain a framework to take legal action against agencies “if they infringe intentionally or with gross negligence” on their obligations. A rating agency would also have to disclose information on their rating methodologies.

To prevent conflicts of interest, the new regulations would impose limits on owners of more than 5 percent of one credit rating agency who want to invest in others.

On several occasions, European leaders have blamed the agencies for worsening the debt crisis, most notably in July when the president of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso, criticized the decision to downgrade debt in his native Portugal to junk status.

As the European debt crisis starts to engulf Italy, President Nicolas Sarkozy of France has been striving to ensure that it does not spread to his country. A priority of his coming re-election campaign is ensuring that France’s triple-A rating stays intact, a challenge that has intensified as France’s share of the bill for helping to contain the crisis grows.

The loss of the top rating would also deal a serious blow to the euro zone’s rescue fund, which is seeking to increase its firepower.

After S.&P. reported the mistake Thursday, the French finance minister, François Baroin, quickly demanded an investigation into “the causes and eventual consequences of the error.” Within a half-hour, the French stock market regulator said it would open an inquiry. It also notified the European financial market authority, which oversees “the professional obligations of the ratings agencies.”

In a statement, S.&P. attributed the message to “a technical error” and affirmed that the rating was unchanged. But the yield for France’s 10-year benchmark bond jumped more than a quarter point, to 3.48 percent, and the spread between French and German bonds of that duration reached 1.7 percentage points, a euro-era record, Bloomberg News reported.

The erroneous S.&P. message went out shortly before 4 p.m. Paris time, and the correction was issued almost two hours later, after most European markets had closed.

Source

@USAF: But its not staving off collapse though
Dutch Lesbian
 54 USAF713, Fri, 11th Nov '11 9:34:39 AM from the United States
I changed accounts.
Well, if they can't collect any taxes, what are they going to do? They're fucked, otherwise.
I am now known as Flyboy.
Decemberist
Dunno USAF

Also

Slovenia's bonds jumped to 7% before settling at 6.something
Dutch Lesbian
 56 FF Shinra, Sun, 13th Nov '11 10:28:25 AM from Ivalice, apparently Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
Silvio Berlusconi has stepped down and technocrat Mario Monti is now prime minister.

Relevant -


Anyway, Anyone know whats going to be needed now that they've pushed through the austerity measures over there in Italy?
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Decemberist
Tony Blair: Euro collapse would be catastrophic

Portugal's soldiers hold rare protest against cuts

Hmm, its going to get tasty in Portugal again if the Army is pissed off. They might roll the clock back to 1974 >.<

Edit [up] A miracle and hope that the North Italian independence movements don't flare up now

edited 13th Nov '11 10:38:54 AM by whaleofyournightmare

Dutch Lesbian
 58 Inhopelessguy, Sun, 13th Nov '11 10:41:50 AM from Birmingham, Greater Europe Relationship Status: Less than three
💩💩💩💩💩&#1
They might roll the clock back to 1974

1974?

Anyway, I'm assuming the Europhobes in Britain are in "I told you so" Mode.

Europe as a whole is still a strong economy (just about) - but only because of the N. European states. I'm reckoning that China might snap up some debt, considering that they've already started to invest in certain European countries already.

How are the Americans looking at this?

edited 13th Nov '11 10:42:28 AM by Inhopelessguy

💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩
Decemberist
Yes Hopeless, the Portuguese government was couped in 1974 and replaced with a military dictatorship
Dutch Lesbian
 60 Inhopelessguy, Sun, 13th Nov '11 10:53:14 AM from Birmingham, Greater Europe Relationship Status: Less than three
💩💩💩💩💩&#1
So, wait... they joined the EU in 1971 (like the UK), and then 3 years later became a military dictatorship?
💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
Well, at least in Portugal the Army is considering stopping austerity dead on its tracks.

That's a good thing: Austerity needs to die in a fire, what the EU needs to do is to plunder the rich, not cut services to the working class.

edited 13th Nov '11 10:58:07 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
Decemberist
Hopeless, they left in 1974 and rejoined in 1986.
Dutch Lesbian
 63 Inhopelessguy, Sun, 13th Nov '11 11:06:24 AM from Birmingham, Greater Europe Relationship Status: Less than three
💩💩💩💩💩&#1
Oh, that makes more sense.

And rather funny, in a way.
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 64 FF Shinra, Sun, 13th Nov '11 11:25:50 AM from Ivalice, apparently Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
Interesting. I had only been aware of the Estado Novo regime. I wasn't aware there had been another authoritarian regime in between it's collapse after the Colonial War and the present.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
 65 Psyclone, Sun, 13th Nov '11 2:50:44 PM from Somewhere else
A Superior Spider-Man
That was the period known as the "Verão Quente" ("Hot Summer") and it lasted exactly seven months (April 25th to November 25th) until another coup stopped it. Portugal nearly became a communist country during that period.

As for the army people around here aren't too worried despite one of the "April Captains" recently giving an interview claiming that "800 men could take over this country". Pretty much everyone dismissed him as being irresponsible and inflammatory. Now are people pissed off at austerity? DEFINITELY.

edited 13th Nov '11 2:53:23 PM by Psyclone

Any child can follow rules. True adulthood is knowing which ones to break and when.
 66 Octo, Mon, 14th Nov '11 3:49:06 AM from Germany
Prince of Dorne
Yes Hopeless, the Portuguese government was couped in 1974 and replaced with a military dictatorship
Wait, what what what??? Gah, that's a complete reversal of what happened! You're really doing injustice to the Portuguese army here.

Portugal was a dictatorship until 1974. Under Salazar. Basically the Portuguese Franco. Just that Salazar also bled his country dry fighting pointless bush wars in Angola and Mozambique, then still Portuguese colonies. Eventually, the Army got fed up with that and couped - the Carnation Revolution. Note how it's called a Revolution. 1975/76 there was some infighting within the coupist government, but in 76 there was the first democratic election after Salazar.

In Portugal, the coupists built up democracy!

Also, Portugal joined the EEC (EU didn't exist yet) in 1986. Not rejoined. Joined.
Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken.

Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
 68 Greenmantle, Mon, 14th Nov '11 4:20:21 AM from Failing Britannia Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Carry On
[up][up]

Rule of Perception: Coup = Bad for Democracy.

On a different note, 1974 was a Bad year...

In Britain, there were rumours of a possible coup against Harold Wilson, including an military "exercise" in Heathrow Airport in Feb of that year.

edited 14th Nov '11 4:21:06 AM by Greenmantle

"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield" — Alfred, Lord Tennyson
 69 USAF 721, Mon, 14th Nov '11 4:37:07 AM from the United States
F-22 1986 Concept
Ugh, people are so stupid irrational.

They stop financing Greece and it'll just get worse...
USAF713 on his phone or iPod.
 71 Greenmantle, Mon, 14th Nov '11 6:23:41 AM from Failing Britannia Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Carry On
[up][up]

USAF, whatever happens It Will Get Worse.

By the way, trading with Greece is falling because it as seen as risky — that is, it is likely that they will not paid, let alone receive much of a profit...

edited 14th Nov '11 6:25:27 AM by Greenmantle

"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield" — Alfred, Lord Tennyson
 72 USAF713, Mon, 14th Nov '11 3:43:31 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
[up] So, what, it's no longer "is Europe fucked?" so much as it's "how badly is Europe fucked?"

Great...
I am now known as Flyboy.
 73 Greenmantle, Tue, 15th Nov '11 12:28:24 AM from Failing Britannia Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Carry On
[up]

Yep. The EU have even been begging for money from the Chinese (and the Chinese have, on the whole, said NO), So Yeah...

Other developments:

What is interesting is the part at the end of the last article:

Because the real problem is that there is nobody who can credibly speak for the common interest of Europe. Since its inception in the 1950s, the European project has been run and controlled by a club of national governments.

The political process has been one of haggling behind closed doors, with issues presented to electorates as a matter of competing national interests. But such haggling is dangerous in a financial crisis.

Jose Manuel Barroso: "The measures have taken too long and they have not been fully delivered"

Any solution must be agreed by 17 governments, and ratified by 17 parliaments, an impossibly slow process. And the longer it takes, the more bitter each dispute risks becoming, and the greater the market's loss of confidence in the euro becomes, undermining Europe's fragile economy.

The European Commission president, Jose Manuel Barroso, has tried to speak for the common interest, pleading for the Commission to take the lead in solving Europe's problems. But he is a political appointee, and as such, he is easily ignored by national leaders and scarcely noticed by the wider public.

Perhaps, if Mr Barroso were an elected leader, he could guide European public opinion towards a comprehensive solution to the crisis that balanced the interests of the different nations.

But as it is, the European public is very far from understanding the issues, or agreeing to the greater economic and political integration that may be needed to save the euro.

Sadly, this political dilemma is one that may not have a workable solution.

It is Not Going to Get Better any time soon.

edited 15th Nov '11 12:31:14 AM by Greenmantle

"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield" — Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Decemberist
Greece's new interim PM Lucas Papademos is to face a vote of confidence, amid an ongoing debt crisis threatening its membership of the eurozone.

- Whats the matter with Spain
Whoever wins Spain's general election on Sunday - and it looks likely to be the opposition conservatives - will face a potentially unsolvable economic dilemma.

edited 16th Nov '11 2:34:50 AM by whaleofyournightmare

Dutch Lesbian
 75 FF Shinra, Wed, 16th Nov '11 8:43:56 AM from Ivalice, apparently Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
[up] At least according to experts he's expected to survive the vote.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
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