TheSameButMoreSpecific: Fake Complete Monster

This article just strikes me as The Same But More Specific: it's Complete Monster but subverted, as it turns out to be a facade that the character assumed for whatever reason after a reveal. There's also a very minimal list of examples to support it. So is this a legitimate trope that just needs more examples, or should it be deleted and/or merged into Complete Monster?

Someone who is built up as a Complete Monster as in no good qualities and has seemingly committed huge atrocities then revealed to be Not What He Seems is for sure a trope and is NOT the Complete Monster trope (that he heavily watched and even considering that it might be this trope will get it removed off Complete Monster)... but this really should of went into YKTTW first to get examples and such.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

It's not the same thing as a Complete Monster, so no, it shouldn't be merged. It's a subversion that automatically disqualifies a character from being a CM.

What distinction is served by this trope instead of Zero-Approval Gambit?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

A Zero-Approval Gambit is a type of plan, a Fake Complete Monster is a type of character that uses it.

Except the plan is to present yourself as a Complete Monster, so... Isn't that circular?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

They could use it, or they might be setup by someone else to look like the Complete Monster (IE MS Saga did this.) usage of mass media to be portrayed as this (Gundam 00) Mind controlled or manipulated into it. It's not limited to intentional gambits.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

No, the description says, " who takes on the facade of a Complete Monster for otherwise benevolent purposes."

Only intentional cases fit this trope.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Which is Zero-Approval Gambit. This trope is not sufficiently distinct. It also makes the mistake of basing its definition on one of the most controversial tropes on the wiki. Not good.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Yeah, this is Zero-Approval Gambit But More Specific and more controversial.

Infinite Tree: an experimental story

Yeah, 8 wicks and 0 inbounds, this is one tiny, unused trope. The anime examples look like Zero-Approval Gambit from what I can tell. The literature ones are just bad because neither Snape or Jaime qualify as Complete Monsters. And Jaime isn't putting on an evil show for benevolent purposes, he's an arrogant Jerkass who Kicks The Dog a couple of times before getting some Character Development.

edited 4th Nov '11 10:15:37 AM by Rotpar

Um, doesn't Zero-Approval Gambit allow for actually doing monstrous things? Look at the Code Geass example.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Edit: Zero-Approval Gambit is close enough.

edited 4th Nov '11 10:39:35 AM by TwinBird

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.

How is "uniting a world" monstrous? What did he do? What he did was conqour every nation. If conquering is not inherently evil, then he did no evil. It does, however, make people resent and hate you. It makes you pictured as a Complete Monster.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Ok, since Complete Monster is by definition only for straight examples, and this trope is already covered under Zero-Approval Gambit I support the merge of Fake Complete Monster into that.

If there's no objections by the 8th, I will move everything then.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Only other way I could think of to salvage it would be redefining it from "fakes being a monster for good cause" to "fakes being a monster for some reason". The only example I can think of is still Lelouch, he's not the evil maniac he presents himself as, but that's still specifically Zero-Approval Gambit. But I guess you could fake being a Complete Monster for other reasons. You think being a monster makes you cool? Pretending to be a monster gives you gang credit? You get a 10% discount at the mall if they think you eat babies? That's really all I can think of, and there's probably a Fake Badass or Not Really A Bad Guy trope somewhere that I don't recall that covers this.

edited 5th Nov '11 9:22:50 AM by Rotpar

Thing is, Zero-Approval Gambit refers to the process, Fake Complete Monster refers to the end result. They aren't the same thing.

But if they're mutually inclusive, they can't have two pages.

"How is "uniting a world" monstrous?"

No, that was the end result of his gambit. His actual gambit consisted of ordering a bunch of people killed.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

I won't take the time to give good is not nice justifications for each of his acts. The important thing is that none of the examples describe him doing evil. The zero approval gambit does not require evil deeds, merely allowing oneself to be seen as evil.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Hmm. Fake Complete Monster sounds like it could refer to just being misunderstood, not actually trying to look like a bad guy.

But in general, Playing With a YMMV trope is not a good foundation for an objective trope.

Fake Complete Monster doesn't need to be merged with Zero-Approval Gambit because they don't describe the same thing, but it can be merged with Hero with Bad Publicity, since it's basically The Same But More.

I would agree, if Fake Complete Monster didn't explicitly say that it was intentional.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I get the sense FCM can still be a villain, though. Were you talking to me? I was talking about the title, not the description.