Putting Real Life examples here doesn't seem like a good idea to me.: Lady Macbeth

In my humble opinion, the idea of having Real Life examples of this trope, which basically amounts to 'Wife of a villain who supports him and may even be more competent than him' is ticking me off quite a bit, for the reason that it feels like calling a real person a villain, which is asking for trouble.

Therefore, my suggestion is that we remove the Real Life examples of this and add the trope to the No Real Life Examples group. Better safe than sorry. I hope that there are at least some people who share my thoughts on this.

"Suffer a vicious person and you will fear vice. Suffer a virtuous one and you will soon loathe virtue itself." Tony Duvert

Seconded.

Thirded (third?)

I second the seconding.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

Nthing.

"You want to see how a human dies? At ramming speed." - Emily Wong.

Agreed.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Well, since pretty much everyone who has replied till now has seconded the decision without counter-arguments, I am gonna go ahead and make the changes right now. If someone thinks they should be reverted, we can discuss it again.

"Suffer a vicious person and you will fear vice. Suffer a virtuous one and you will soon loathe virtue itself." Tony Duvert

The only thing I think is worthy of being kept is

however IMO it could be wrapped into the description in a much smaller form as this happens to the fictional examples too. (hell the CSI Vegas episode two weeks ago had this.)

edited 19th Oct '11 6:51:30 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

That actually shows sense. Will make another edit to showcase that. Again, if someone contests the action, it can still be discussed.

"Suffer a vicious person and you will fear vice. Suffer a virtuous one and you will soon loathe virtue itself." Tony Duvert

I agree with deleting the real life section. But to be honest, I think the phrasing "they often seduce men into committing the murder" is slightly comical. Let's rather put it "they often persuade men to commit the murder for them" or "have a man commit the murder for them".

Let's just say and leave it at that.

I had actually worded it as seducing other people since it is obvious that there may be cases of women inciting other women to do the 'job' for them, but I guess the word "persuading" would make the page look less stupidly sexist and make it clear that women can use many resources to get what they desire, not just their bodies.

Okay, another prehemtive edit.

"Suffer a vicious person and you will fear vice. Suffer a virtuous one and you will soon loathe virtue itself." Tony Duvert

Thank you. I hadn't registered that you had changed "men" to "other people" in the description text. But anyway, I think it's much better without the "seducing" aspect.

Let's just say and leave it at that.

Looks much much better. And the part about real life works better in the description than as a catch-all in a Real Life sectoion. It's kind of important.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

That part is not just real life it's in works, too lots of crime dramas have them.

In the CSI ep I brought up earlier a Husband and wife serial killer team got caught he got life she got 5 years for murders because he did all the work and she played the "he made me help" card... Only for the CSI to find videos after the verdict that she really was this trope (and really god damn crazy).

So any mention of Real Life might want to be removed or toned down and made just a general part of the trope.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I'm curious if this is up for a rename.

Fight smart, not fair.

Why should it be?

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Because it's a character-named trope, presumably? That said, I'm somewhat more comfortable naming tropes after The Bard than naming them after 15-year-old TV shows.

It would be interesting to see if this name is used for this trope outside of the wiki.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

Yah, character named trope. Hate those things. Got work shortly, I'll try to remember to do a wik check later.

edited 19th Oct '11 2:43:21 PM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.

260,000+ Google hits for "is a Lady Macbeth"; one of the very first is about Michelle Obama.

15 of the first 30 hits were about a production of Macbeth, the actress playing her, the character, or were from a "buy your essay for school here" type site.

Of the other 15:

• "claims that Michelle Obama is a Lady Macbeth"
• "There is a Lady Macbeth character in Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District, which is a short story by Nikolai Leskov"
• "41 Million Abortions Later, Jane Roe Is A Lady Macbeth" (2 referring to the same thing)
• "Corrine Tedros is a Lady Macbeth wannabe who sets in motion the murder of her uncle-in-law (a soft-drink mogul), and things go awry" (about a character in Late Rain; there were 6 references to this work.)
• "Together, Virgo and Scorpio accomplish a lot. If she is a Lady Macbeth-type Scorpio and he's a Casper Milquetoast-like Virgo" (A zodiac traits site)
• "But his dad is a tyrannical bore, his step-mom is a Lady Macbeth in a mini skirt," (Pippin, 2 of the first 30)
• "The duchess is a Lady Macbeth in mink who fears that a scandal will stall her husband's diplomatic career " (The play Hotel)
• "Mom is a lady Macbeth-type manipulator, her husband is mute under a witches' spell;" (Once Upon A Mattress; 1)

That's the first 30 hits. Half of them are using the phrase the same way we do — as a character- or personality-type.

edited 19th Oct '11 3:12:49 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

"Seduce" as defined by several dictionaries:

---

1. Attract (someone) to a belief or into a course of action that is inadvisable or foolhardy.

2. Entice into sexual activity.

---

1. To lead away from duty, accepted principles, or proper conduct. See Synonyms at lure.

2. To induce to engage in sex.

3. a. To entice or beguile into a desired state or position.

b. To win over; attract.

---

1: to persuade to disobedience or disloyalty

2: to lead astray usually by persuasion or false promises

3: to carry out the physical seduction of : entice to sexual intercourse

4: attract

---

[Middle English seduisen, from Old French seduire, seduis-, alteration (influenced by Medieval Latin sdcere, to lead astray) of suduire, to seduce, from Latin subdcere, to withdraw : sub-, sub- + dcere, to lead; see deuk- in Indo-European roots.]

---

In all cases, the PRIMARY definition is general, and sexual seduction is lower on each list. Though I guess nowadays, all people think about is sex, so they automatically assume seduction, intercourse, moan, etc. are referring to sexual instances. Pretty sad, really.

Though I guess if you want to use another word for the same thing, it's fine.

edited 19th Oct '11 3:26:56 PM by ProfessionalBaby

I make change happen... by crapping in my diaper!

But is it the right personality? I may be doing my best to forget everything I know about the works of Shakespeare as fast as I can, but the first thing that comes to mind is "consort that motivates her husband to do things he wouldn't do", followed shortly by "someone who goes crazy after getting what she wants". This one is specifically about murder isn't it?

Fight smart, not fair.

No, it's not specific to murder. I don't know the Late Rain or Hotel works or the short story, , but the Pippin and Once Upon a Mattress ones are accurate,

edited 19th Oct '11 9:52:57 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

I can clarify for you:

"consort that motivates her husband to do things he wouldn't do" - In the play she does push Macbeth into murdering King Duncan to take his place as ruler, but he was definitly playing with the idea beforehand due to hearing a prophecy from the Weird Sisters and his own ambitiousness. This could be exaggerated to her being more ambitious and blood-thirsty than he is though, depending on your interpretation.

"someone who goes crazy after getting what she wants" - Sorta, by being an accomplice to murder she goes mad with guilt over killing a fair King.

I the first aspect is what we're looking at here. I think the name's quite sound and the page's description looks great.

[The rest was unintelligible.]

Okay, reading the page it fits better. From the section, I thought this was written specifically about convincing men to kill for them.

Fight smart, not fair.

Killing is just the most common form, but it can be anything against their better natures.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick