Distinguishing which examples qualify: All Jews Are Ashkenazi

I've noticed some issues with uses of that trope. Some examples are good ones, as they illustrate situations where it would be appropriate to have non-Ashkenazi Jews, and the work doesn't. Also definitely good examples are ones listing aversions- which is what I think legitimate examples should generally be.

However, it seems that this is sometimes becoming a case of People Sit On Chairs. For instance, Stranger Among Us involves Hasidic Jews in New York. Not only are most American Jews Ashenazi in general, but Hasidic Judaism is a movement that started out of Eastern Europe, so most of them would naturally be Ashkenazi.

I'm not sure if I'm expressing this well, but I'm trying to get at the idea that depending on the work, it might be noteworthy to have Ashenazi Jews or it just might fit the expectation of the setting.

I had added an S to the end of the trope- flagged the mods about it, and see that it was fixed.

edited 15th Oct '11 9:22:24 AM by Jordan

Hodor

All Jews Are Ashkenazis there is no trope by that name. To propose a new trope, the YKTTW is open. If you have misspelt the name, try again.

I think you're right; It does seem People Sit On Chairs. It could be retrofitted into a trope about what the American stereotype of Jews is, since it's basically attempting to be a Useful Notes version of that page. Perhaps a rename to Hollywood Judaism?

edited 17th Oct '11 2:56:53 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I think there is a genuine trope in there, but it's being misused somewhat. Many examples (which I have tried to delete whenever I see them) were just "Character x is Ashkenazi", which would be People Sit On Chairs, at least in America. The trope should rather be about the explicit or implicit assumption that all Jews are Ashkenazi. Appropriate examples might include Jewish characters who, from their background or time period, would not be Ashkenazi, but still have Ashkenazi names or speak with Yiddish accents.

Two (comedic) examples:

• Used extensively in Mel Brooks's History of the World Part I for comedy. Even the Spanish Sephardic Jews in the Inquisition song absurdly speak in Yiddish accents with smatterings of Yiddish such as "Oy gevald!" But none of the film even pretends to try to be taken seriously.
• Rule of Funny-based Astérix example - Ashkenazi Jews in Jerusalem in 50 B.C.

There are several other examples of characters who avert this rule, but I'm undecided as to whether this might also qualify as People Sit On Chairs, or whether these face the same problems as other Averted Tropes

Thanks for the reply. That's very well put. With Brooks as well as with the (IMO good) examples I've added, there are cases where Jewish characters are obviously supposed to be Sephardic, but speak Yiddish and have other Ashkenazi traits, due to Rule of Funny, Creator Provincialism, etc.

However, in general, adding this trope for examples of Jewish characters in American works is just People Sit On Chairs.

Hodor

I am not sure about this, but maybe it would be a good idea to add a sentence at the end of the description to the effect of "note that examples for All Jews Are Ashkenazi only really count if there are no non-Ashkenazi Jews in a setting where one would conceivably expect them."

If that makes the description not flow very well, then we could make the same note in % at the beginning/end of the trope's page so only editors would see it.

In the event that other people like that idea, we could then go through the wicks for misuse and throw out the People Sitting On Chairs examples.

edited 13th Jan '12 5:08:12 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d

Are we going to do anything with this?

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.

I've added a hidden note under the description for the time being, basically telling editors not to add simple examples of Ashkenazim in a work.

In general, I think all this trope really needs is to remove non-fitting examples and perhaps to make the actual description a bit clearer in order to avoid misuse. I could potentially change it a bit later if others consider it appropriate.

Kor Khan,

The editor note looks fine to me. Do you think it would make sense to adjust the first sentence of the description to say "If there is a Jew in any mainstream media (and the odds are better than you might think), he or she will most likely be portrayed as Ashkenazi even when that portrayal does not fit that character's background or the setting" or something like that?

I feel like it might be a good idea to make it a bit clearer in the description that this is about Ashkenazi traits being used when they do not fit. That being said, I welcome feedback on that idea if you have any to give.

edited 5th Feb '12 10:55:40 AM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d

Sounds good, might as well add that. I admit that my provisional version of the editor's note wasn't quite as clear as it could have been (a side effect of writing way past my bed time).

Feel free to make changes yourself if you have more adjustments.

edited 5th Feb '12 6:46:12 PM by KorKhan

I think the fixes and the editor note are pretty good. Can we close this?

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.

Kor Khan,

Thanks for adding that for me. Unless I am forgetting something, I think it would be a good idea to do a brief cleanup of the wicks and then lock the thread.

edited 6th Feb '12 10:36:14 AM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d

I've gone through the list of wicks and removed all the straight "Character X is Ashkenazi" examples. It still has to be decided what to do with the many "Character Y averts this trope by being Sephardi (or Mizrahi, Falasha, etc.)" entries. Those make up at least half the remaining links to the trope page. Should they also be ditched? Or is the trope ubiquitous enough that aversions are noteworthy?

Kor Khan,

I am not the final authority on this, but I would be inclined to keep the aversions for now, partly because I think the title of the trope seems to imply that this is a pretty common trope and partly because it seems worthwhile to me to not cut half of the examples.

I would glad to hear what other people think though.

edited 7th Feb '12 11:28:53 AM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d

I see no issue with that.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.

My inclination is to cut the aversions—"there's a Jew who isn't Ashkenazi" doesn't seem remarkable—unless either (a) It's in a setting where you really expect Jews to be Ashkenazi, and thus, is a straight reversal of the trope (e.g. if there's a Hassidic rebbe who's Sephardic), or (b) It's commented on in the work (e.g. a character is surprised that a non-Ashkenazi Jew doesn't act like the Jews he's met, e.g. doesn't eat bagels).

But if it's no more than "In Where's Waldo: A New Beginning, there's a rabbi who speaks Ladino", I don't think that's noteworthy.

edited 7th Feb '12 4:10:05 PM by Narsil

Let's not be unrealistic here — nobody doesn't eat bagels. The things are fucking delicious!

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.

I think I agree with Narsil on this one.

I got a holler to close this; are you guys still working on the examples, or are we done?

edited 15th Mar '12 8:03:03 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.